BILLI FITZSIMONS, HOST: Prime Minister, thank you for joining The Daily Aus.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Wonderful to be here.
FITZSIMONS: I want to start really broad. In your eyes, what is the biggest issue facing young people today?
PRIME MINISTER: Intergenerational equity. The feeling that young people have that they're not getting a fair crack at what my generation and previous generations had. It is more difficult today to buy a home. There are pressures also, I think, on young people due to the influence of new technology, the changing nature of work that has come with that.
FITZSIMONS: So let's start with the cost of living. Most of our audience are renters. If you're re-elected, what will your government do to support renters?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the key, of course, is supply. Is a way of producing lower costs, whether it be for home purchase or for people in rental properties. We have increased rental assistance by 45 per cent in just our last two budgets. Now not everyone gets rental assistance, but the most vulnerable do. There's no short term fix. You can't fix what is a long term issue overnight.
FITZSIMONS: I want to talk more about supply. So Labor has a goal to build 1.2 million homes by mid-2029. New analysis last week showed we are already behind on that target. Why are we already behind?
PRIME MINISTER: Because of some of the hold ups that are there in state and local government planning, there are a range of issues that need to be dealt with.
FITZSIMONS: Because many of those hold ups aren't new, they're not new issues.
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, they aren't, they aren't at all. But we had, our legislation was only passed, for example, our legislation on Build to Rent that provides private sector incentives for rental properties to be built - that was only passed in December. I would have spoken to you prior to the last election here about our Housing Australia Future Fund. But it took us two years to get that legislation through, and that has meant there's a delay.
FITZSIMONS: Can we expect any further announcements specifically about the cost of living for young people before the next election?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, you can.
FITZSIMONS: Are you going to tell us it now?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm not going to make announcements now. But I will say that one of the things that we've done is not just talk about what we have done this term, but we've already foreshadowed our action in the second term. So we'll cut student debt by a further 20 per cent because we want to address these issues. We think that it is unfair. And we'll also change where it kicks in and the amount that has to be paid back as a measure as well.
FITZSIMONS: Let's move to First Nations issues. Since the failed referendum, what has your government done to better the lives of First Nations people in this country?
PRIME MINISTER: One of the things we've done is to concentrate on economic opportunity. So we're replacing the old work for the dole scheme, basically. That didn't really have any real jobs and people weren't participating in training and skills. We have announced record funding for housing in remote communities as well. We understand that that is a real priority. If you've got housing overcrowding, then you have health and education issues. And that has been an important announcement, with billions of dollars placed in there. And as well in health, dialysis machines becoming available, increased support for health in Indigenous communities is really important.
FITZSIMONS: If we look at the Close the Gap targets, there's nineteen of them and only five are on track, and four have, in fact, worsened. So clearly, that's not enough.
PRIME MINISTER: We know that that's the case. We know that governments of all persuasions haven't done enough. That's why First Nations people gathered at Uluru in 2017 and said we need to try something different. Now the government, my government, put our shoulder to the wheel and offered Australians the choice through a referendum. Now Australians didn't vote for that, we have to respect that. You have to respect democratic outcomes. So what I did was go to the Garma Festival last year and outline a strategy for economic empowerment.
FITZSIMONS: The Productivity Commission, when reporting about the Closing the Gap targets, last year they found, ‘without fundamental change, the agreement will fail and the gap will remain’. So I guess my question is, what is your fundamental change?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we are trying to do, we did try to set up a different structure –
FITZSIMONS: But now that that failed, what happens now?
PRIME MINISTER: Economic empowerment and engaging with Indigenous communities directly. There are great successes, if you look at the community around where the Garma festival is held, that's an example of education empowerment. There's a range of measures on education that they have, language, cultural respect. They have health programs, employment programs - they've been quite successful.
FITZSIMONS: But the Closing the Gap targets would suggest that they haven't.
PRIME MINISTER: There are examples, what we shouldn't do is say there aren't success stories anywhere in Australia, because there are.
FITZSIMONS: But I guess the idea of policy, right, is to focus on the issues that need improvement.
PRIME MINISTER: Exactly, and that is precisely what we are doing - and the key to that is economic empowerment. Is ensuring that the opportunities which many Australians would take for granted, which aren't available to First Nations, people are spread. You won't solve this overnight, but you will have respectful conversations, to do things with Indigenous people, rather than for them.
FITZSIMONS: Let's turn to domestic violence. Last year, there were 78 women killed by gender based violence in Australia. The government's main policy in this area is the national plan. For those who aren't familiar with the national plan, do you want to just explain what it is?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the national plan is multifaceted. It's about, respect and education is one element. But it's also about ensuring that women and children have places to go. So it's about ensuring that social housing or emergency housing is available. Part of the Housing Australia Future Fund, that was held up for a while, is about making sure that that can occur. So there's a proportion that housing reserved for women and children escaping domestic violence.
FITZSIMONS: And it's not new, we've had a national plan before. The last one failed, and then since this plan came into effect in 2022 the number of women killed by an intimate partner has increased each year in 2023 and 2024. So are these plans working?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, quite clearly, the statistics tell us that we need to do much better. That this is completely unacceptable. There are too many examples where men have been released on bail having committed violent offenses against their partner and gone on to then commit murder - and those issues need to be dealt with as well. They're state and territory laws, and we are seeing changes across a range of jurisdictions. This requires a whole of society response, because it is so prevalent, and it requires people to speak up about all of these issues.
FITZSIMONS: I guess I'm wondering, it has got worse each year since this plan has come into effect. At what point do you concede that these national plans aren't working?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what you need to do is to not just throw your arms up and say they're not working, I'm not suggesting you're doing that of course. You need to -
FITZSIMONS: But will more be done?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, we are doing more –
FITZSIMONS: That's not currently in the national plan?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, so the increased legal assistance has happened since 2022. These changes. –
FITZSIMONS: But since then has got worse.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you put in $500 million over a period of time, that doesn't, you don't make a decision, and then it's in place that day. But what we have done –
FITZSIMONS: No, but we’ve had three years.
PRIME MINISTER: What we have done since the plan, is we've changed the legal assistance - in 2022 we didn't have the Housing Australia Future Fund, with the funding for emergency housing that has now passed and that is now flowing to states and territories. So all of these measures, the work is never done. What, one death is one too many. Let alone the rise that we have seen.
FITZSIMONS: I want to move on to mental health. If the Coalition is elected, they have promised to reinstate the 20 subsidised mental health sessions. Why is a Labor government not in support of this?
PRIME MINISTER: Because if you look at the statistics, what was happening was that some people were getting 20, and a whole lot of people were missing out on any at all. It was not effective. We have put record funding into mental health. We are putting additional funding into increased training so we get more mental health professionals involved. What we need is more people to be able to provide those services, otherwise it can lead to less people getting service than would occur otherwise.
FITZSIMONS: But you also need people to be able to pay for the services - there absolutely was analysis that showed that. But there was also research that showed that people are delaying seeking help because of the cost of living. And so I guess if the solution -
PRIME MINISTER: Well this, what was happening was that that people weren't getting the 10 –
FITZSIMONS: But people who were in desperate need are now delaying getting more help because they don't have access to the extra 20. But my question is –
PRIME MINISTER: Some people were getting none, is the point. Some people were getting 20 and some people were getting none. That was the problem.
FITZSIMONS: So I guess my question is, if the solution isn't to expand subsidised mental health sessions, let's say the solution is not that. What is your solution?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the solution is to make sure that people can get access to subsidised mental health sessions.
FITZSIMONS: And you're saying you're not going to do that through helping people pay for it, but through having more people be able to deliver the service. Is that right?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's a that's a precondition.
FITZSIMONS: Yeah.
PRIME MINISTER: That's a precondition for it. And we took advice from the experts and the statistics that showed that people were simply missing out.
FITZSIMONS: I want to shift to gambling. Australians spend and lose more to gambling than people in any other country in the world.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah.
FITZSIMONS: A committee chaired by a former Labor MP recommended a total ban on gambling ads. That hasn't happened. Why not?
PRIME MINISTER: We have taken more action on problem gambling than any government since Federation - in history. So we've introduced BetStop, which has helped people substantially. We've banned the use of credit cards online as well, which was a big issue of sport gambling. There's more to do, but in our, in this term, we have done more, as I've said, than any government in history previously.
FITZSIMONS: But those measures haven't changed the fact that, again, Australians spend and lose more to gambling than people in any other country in the world, that hasn't changed.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, and there are no ads for poker machine gambling, which is overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly where losses are. So the link between the two things is not a simple one. As I said, we have done a range of measures in place. We accept that there's more to do, and we will do more.
FITZSIMONS: So just to be really clear. Will Labor go to the next election with nothing on gambling ads, specifically?
PRIME MINISTER: No, we will go to the next election with the comprehensive policy –
FITZSIMONS: But on gambling ads.
PRIME MINISTER: On gambling, well which gambling ads?
FITZSIMONS: So there was legislation that was shelved in November, right?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
FITZSIMONS: On gambling ads.
PRIME MINISTER: No.
FITZSIMONS: There was legislation on gambling ads or draft legislation that was in discussion.
PRIME MINISTER: No.
FITZSIMONS: So you've never considered banning gambling ads?
PRIME MINISTER: No, we're considering a range of measures, but there has never been legislation. What we are doing is consulting on a range of measures - what more can we do to address problem gambling? As I said, we've done more than any government in history, since Federation. We accept that there's more to do, and we will do more.
FITZSIMONS: Let's move to climate change, and I want to focus on the Paris Agreement. So the US has recently withdrawn from the Paris Agreement. 2024 was the first year that global temperatures surpassed 1.5 degrees above pre industrial levels. And even if Australia reaches our climate targets, it still wouldn't be enough to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees. So do you still believe that the Paris Agreement is achievable?
PRIME MINISTER: I certainly do. And what's more, we've got a responsibility to achieve it. Our objective should be to lower emissions as much as possible. Of course it's the case that any individual nation state acting will not achieve an outcome by itself, because this is a global issue. It requires a global response. But if we don't act, then what legitimacy will we have in arguing that other countries, particularly developing countries, should act?
FITZSIMONS: I want to briefly touch on TikTok. Would you consider a ban on TikTok, like we saw temporarily in the US?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
FITZSIMONS: I'm interested in that, because TikTok is banned on government devices in Australia. Is there a risk that the Chinese government is surveilling Australians through the TikTok app?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the security agencies have put in place measures –
FITZSIMONS: Because there is a risk of the Chinese government surveilling Australians?
PRIME MINISTER: Well there is, of course, because it is owned with links to the Chinese government, because of their domestic policy and the control that Chinese government has over Chinese companies to be able to direct them to provide information - that is the concern that people have.
FITZSIMONS: Let's turn to the conflict in the Middle East. Research cited by the UN earlier this month estimates that 92 per cent of housing units in Gaza have been destroyed or damaged. When the ceasefire was first announced, you were asked whether Australia would have a role in rebuilding Gaza, and you said it was too soon to answer before the agreement took effect. So I'm interested in your answer today. Will Australia play a role in rebuilding Gaza?
PRIME MINISTER: Australia's always played a responsible role internationally. And we've played a role in, we've increased our aid to Gaza, that has been important through various agencies. Not just the UN but through other agencies as well. So I'm certain that Australia will play a role, as we always do –
FITZSIMONS: In rebuilding Gaza?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah absolutely, as we always do. You know, I'm appalled by the terrorist organisation that is Hamas and the atrocity that they committed on October 7. But Palestinians have paid a very heavy price, including innocent Palestinians for Hamas's atrocities and for the ensuing conflict.
FITZSIMONS: Since October 7, has Australia's relationship with Israel changed?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we have always supported, the Australian government has always supported a two state solution in the Middle East. But we have we've taken a principal position. We have called for ceasefire. We've called for the release of all hostages. We've called for increased aid to be available into Gaza and for that to be allowed in in a speedy fashion. And we have expressed our opposition to the loss of innocent life, whether it be Israeli or Palestinian or Lebanese during this conflict. So we have voted accordingly at the United Nations. That has received some criticism from all sides. But we've taken a principal position, which overwhelmingly that's been in combination with the rest of the rest of the world.
FITZSIMONS: A line I've heard you consistently say when talking about Israel is, Israel has a right to defend itself, but how it defends itself matters. Do you agree with how Israel has defended itself?
PRIME MINISTER: Well quite clearly, I think that there's been too much loss of innocent life. I've made that very clear, and we have voted for that. Israel, of course, post October 7, was always going to defend itself. The threat that Hamas represented is something that was not going to be tolerated and wouldn't have been tolerated by any nation. This was an attack as well, overwhelmingly, a lot of the victims were at the Nova music festival. They were set upon, murdered, raped and taken as hostages for just enjoying a music festival, and it was an appalling action. But the Palestinian people have suffered enormously since then with displacement, with being told to move to areas, and then being told to move again. The loss of life, the loss of housing and amenity, the destruction, has been significant. And I want to see arising out of these tragic circumstances, a move towards a long term solution, and that requires the right of both Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace and security.
FITZSIMONS: Two more topics, the first antisemitism. We have seen a rise in antisemitic and other religiously motivated hate crimes. A number of arrests have been made, but that's in response to this issue. What are you doing in terms of stopping it before it happens?
PRIME MINISTER: Well we're doing education. Just this week we announced funding for a National Centre to be in Canberra, and increased funding as well in Western Australia, at the centre that I visited there for Holocaust education. We need to make sure that people understand that the Holocaust - 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis and it didn't begin with the gas chambers, it began with a treating of Jewish people and a depiction of them as being of less value than their fellow citizens. And we are seeing an equation, which I think has increased - there's no question about that. And we have though people who because they are Jewish, have been targeted. Whether it be a synagogue or whether that be people on the street. We're seeing, I think, really a rise that I haven't seen in my lifetime. You know, it's beyond my comprehension how anyone either does or funds the fire attack, arson attack on a child care centre that is near a synagogue there in Maroubra. That, to my mind, is just appalling.
FITZSIMONS: We have to move on, because we're very much running out of time. I just want to end on global trends. One of the key voting blocks that returned Trump to power in the US was young men. How are you planning, in this election campaign, to reach young men?
PRIME MINISTER: Well we engage through opportunity, is important. What we won't do is engage in some of the campaign strategies that we've seen from some of the right internationally, globally as well.
FITZSIMONS: Like what?
PRIME MINISTER: Well I think this, this toxic masculinity that is being appealed to is a concern. That doesn't benefit societies as a whole. We need to work towards bringing together a common interest, from my perspective of young men and young women. Both have an interest in a strong economy, both have an interest in equity, both have an interest in the planet that they are inheriting and that their children will inherit as well.
FITZSIMONS: Last question, if we look at global trends, there has been a shift to the right in politics and to be re-elected, you'll obviously need to buck that trend. What is your plan to do that?
PRIME MINISTER: Our plan is to put forward the fact that we have been an orderly, good government that has governed through difficult, global inflationary times. But these have been turbulent seas, but we've kept our eye on the horizon. And what we've done is we've got lower inflation, higher wages and low unemployment. So a good record there. But we'll have an offer as well of why people will be better off in three years’ time if they vote for a Labor government. The pitch, essentially, of Peter Dutton is when he says, in their first word of their slogan is back. Australia can't afford to go back, back to a time where a Prime Minister had six portfolios, where wages were going down, inflation was going up, and people weren't being respected for who they are, and our relationship with China was terrible. We can't afford to go back.
FITZSIMONS: Prime Minister, you've been very generous with your time. Thank you so much for joining us.
PRIME MINISTER: Thank you for having me once again. Look forward to coming back during the campaign.
FITZSIMONS: I hope we can do a leaders debate. That's all we're billing for.
PRIME MINISTER: That would be good. I'm up for that. If not, I'll turn up anyway.
FITZSIMONS: We've got it on record.
PRIME MINISTER: Done.
FITZSIMONS: Thank you.