MARK BOURIS, HOST: Prime Minister, welcome to Straight Talk.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Great to be with you, Mark.
BOURIS: Well, it's been a long time getting together. By the way, when I was walking up to the studio just now, I got a photo of something which I've got to show it to you, because you’ll probably have a laugh.
PRIME MINISTER: You know, fun fact, while you're getting that together -
BOURIS: Is that your car?
PRIME MINISTER: No, but it could be.
BOURIS: It's got a South Sydney Rabbitohs, so I thought maybe the Prime Minister parked his car out the front.
PRIME MINISTER: They won't let me put a sticker on C1. Apparently that's against the rules.
BOURIS: I thought, oh my God, he's in our territory. I mean, this is Eastern Suburbs area mate. So, the most important question for the whole economy and for a whole of Australia, the voting Australia, is how are Souths going to go this year?
PRIME MINISTER: They’re going to go real well. The great man is back. Wayne Bennett. In Wayne, we trust. And if we can just get our players on the field. Campbell Graham, not a minute last year. Cam Murray’s out for the beginning. But at one stage, I was waiting for your mate, Nick Pappas to ring us up and ask us to play half back, because we were really struggling for a while there.
BOURIS: Because you've got that young kid now from the UK.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, and that will be good with Cody Walker going back to five-eight, I think his much preferred position, and it's a great team if we can get them on the field.
BOURIS: So, I want to ask you about it, because they, a lot of people, for example in other the other states, probably don't understand rugby league, but they definitely understand, if they're AFL fans, they understand the importance of being part of a tribe and a club. How important is Souths and rugby league to you as a person? Where does it fit into your life? I mean, you've got a busy life in being Prime Minister. I mean you’ve got a million things you got to do. You’ve got your partner, Jodie. You've got other things going on in life. Where does football and Souths fit into your life?
PRIME MINISTER: I think it's about identity. I remember when Souths were kicked out of the comp for a couple of years, some people said, ‘you should just follow another team.’ And to them I said, at the time, I was on the Board of Souths at the time, I said, ‘you don't understand this is about who you are.’ It's about your connections. I mean, I came out of the womb with a cardinal eye and a myrtle eye - red and green. And my grandparents supported Souths. My mum supported Souths. It was just what you do. And it's the way that you relate to your mates that you grew up with. Some of my earliest experiences were sitting on the hill there at Redfern. And that's what team sport is about. So it doesn't matter whether it's Souths or Carlton or Collingwood or whatever team in the AFL -
BOURIS: You can say the Roosters. You can say the Roosters. I know it’s a hard word to say.
PRIME MINISTER: You've got to draw the line somewhere.
BOURIS: It’s a very hard word for you to say, I know.
PRIME MINISTER: For people from interstate, Souths and the Roosters have this rivalry that goes back a long way. I played juniors in the East comp there, because I went to St Mary's Cathedral.
BOURIS: Oh, wow.
PRIME MINISTER: So we used to play - we came third every year. Because every year Marcellin and Bondi United always made the grand final. And we would make the final, and get knocked out every year. We could never beat either of those teams. Marcellin had a fellow called Darren McCarthy as their best player. He was the best player in the comp. Bobby McCarthy, a legend with over 200 games with Souths, and a great player. His son, Darren, was a great player too.
BOURIS: I remember him.
PRIME MINISTER: A first grader, and I tried to tackle him once and he just ran straight over the top of me.
BOURIS: He was a big unit.
PRIME MINISTER: He was twice the size of everyone else in the in the comp at that time.
BOURIS: St Mary's Cathedral, now I remember, now I grew up out in the West, but I remember my mother got me to learn to play piano, and I played piano most of my life. And my mother tried to get me to go to St Mary's because it was a music school, as I recall.
PRIME MINISTER: They had a choir.
BOURIS: Yeah, were you part of that? Did you win some sort of, or were you a musician or a singer or something along those lines to go to St Mary's?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I was, I was hopeless. My mum had me try out for the choir, and I wasn't successful. And so, I enrolled, it was the local school, basically. My mum was very Catholic. I say I was raised with three great faiths - South Sydney, the Labor Party, and the Catholic Church. And if you went through the Catholic system, I went, in primary school I went to St Joseph’s in Camperdown which is a very little school. A lovely school that is now a child care centre. It went to year 4, and then you had to go through a whole series if you were in the Catholic system. You went to St Joseph’s Newtown for year 5 and 6, and then St Thomas Lewisham for 7 to 10, and then Christian Brothers Lewisham 11 and 12, if you went through. So my mum, I grew up in Pyrmont Bridge Road Camperdown where the bus, outside the Children's Hospital, went straight to the city. So, St Mary’s went from year 5 right through the year 12, so mum sent me there. And in year 6 I was going to be taken away from the school because my mum couldn't afford school fees, and they had Brother Simpson, who was in charge of the primary school there, brought us in - myself and mum - and was asking why I was going to leave and not go back into year 6. And mum said that, you know, she just couldn't afford school fees. And so they said to my mum, ‘look, you know, he's a good student, just pay whatever you can, when you can.’ And so, I got to go essentially, free, which the Catholic school system does for a lot of disadvantaged kids. So it was just myself and mum there at home.
BOURIS: It's interesting, Prime Minister, you said something about one of the things that you got out of your family growing up, is God. And actually, interestingly enough, we just had the US Inauguration, and Trump often speaks about God. And God seems to be, or religion, maybe not so much really religion, but belief systems have become okay to have all of a sudden. You know, not all of a sudden, but it’s just become more popular. How important is, to Anthony Albanese, how important is spirituality and a belief system?
PRIME MINISTER: It's important. I tend not to talk too much about it, but it's about who you are. And being raised, I think, with Catholic social justice principles. We're here in Darlinghurst, and we used to go down and help at St Vinnies and do -
BOURIS: Or Matthew Talbot.
PRIME MINISTER: We'd go and help at Matthew Talbot as volunteers. That was a part of going to that school system, is teaching you values about looking after the underprivileged. During the last election campaign I spoke about not leaving people behind, and that was a part of it. Those Catholic social justice principles are really important to me. Looking after each other. The fact that there's something other than just individualism, if you like, is a part of my core belief system.
BOURIS: So, and I know you've come in today to announce the date of the election. But there obviously is an election coming up because this is an election year. People want to know about your values, apart from your policies. It's not a presidential style election, as you know, but it's sort of becoming a little bit that way. For some reason, you know, we're looking at the leader, and people will be saying, ‘well why will I vote for that party or my local member, based on that leader?’ And therefore, because a lot of people don't know much about their local member. A lot. But the leader’s in the media all the time. So, what are our leaders' values? And I know it's a private thing, but can you give us a bit of a sense of, social justice is a great start, but can you give a sense of what are the values that you live by? They're important. Not just policies. But, Anthony Albanese, what's valuable to him?
PRIME MINISTER: I think, if I can sum it up in two phrases. No one left behind, but no one held back. What does that mean in practice? It means making sure that disadvantaged people are looked after, who are vulnerable in society, as well. I do think that is important. We judge society on that. So, I've just been at the opening of a new social housing dwellings. 61 apartments in Marrickville, in my electorate. I grew up in public housing. That's really important. But it's connected up with the second lot of, no one held back, either. We need to value aspiration. My story is one of aspiration, one of someone who - my mum wanted a better life for me and to make the most of opportunity. And I think that government can play a role in creating the circumstances where people can have a better life, have a better standard of living, get an education, thrive for a better standard of living. I know a little bit about yourself, Mark, we've known each other for a little while now. I mean you’re a Western Suburbs boy, in Punchbowl I think.
BOURIS: Yep.
PRIME MINISTER: You know, you did extremely well. That's important that we value that. We want people to succeed in life. We don't want to be satisfied with just where we are, and that's a normal human aspiration. I think that is - part of the reason why people come to Australia is that they want a better life for themselves, and importantly, for their children as well.
BOURIS: So that's interesting, that your mum wanted something better for you. And we do know the story that, you know, you grew up in public housing, single mum, so I won't dwell on that too much. And I, by the way, what I do want to ask you though in that regard is, do you ever sit back and say, ‘wow, I grew up, single mum, social housing and here I am the Prime Minister of the country?’ I mean, that is in terms of aspirational, that's a pretty big call. And were you a kid saying, ‘one day I want to do something better?’
PRIME MINISTER: I certainly thought to myself, ‘one day I want to do better.’ My mum was an invalid pensioner. She couldn't work, crippled up with rheumatoid arthritis, and so we had very limited income. I think if you had have asked a 14 or 15 year old me, it would have been I want a secure job, one day I want to own my own home, and I want to live a better life. But I certainly didn't have the destiny thing. I didn't walk around saying, ‘I'm going to be Prime Minister.’ And even when I went into politics, I didn't go into Parliament thinking that I would be Prime Minister. It's absurd for someone from my background to think that.
BOURIS: Don't get beyond your position.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, exactly.
BOURIS: Especially in the Catholic environment too, by the way. There's a bit of that.
PRIME MINISTER: There is, no there is. Don't get ahead of yourself is a really important thing, and so I didn't do that. But it says something great about this country, that the son of a single mum, an invalid pensioner - or a disability support pensioner they would be called these days - who grew up in public housing, can be Prime Minister of Australia. And there are lots of moments where, on the South Lawn of the United States White House, when you're addressing that scene that you've seen in so many movies, where it's a wow moment. It is a very big deal, and I certainly don't take it for granted. Every single day when I drive into Parliament House, there's a courtyard that you'll see Prime Ministers do the press conferences in. The car drives inside the building at Parliament House, it’s part security measures, but I get dropped off. And every day when the car goes through inside the building, if you like, outside into that courtyard, I pinch myself. It's a great honour and a great privilege.
BOURIS: Do you know that, and you probably know this because I'm sure you've got advisers around the place, but you are, one of your strengths is that you're very relatable. And you can tell the story well, but you're very relatable as an individual. And I'm getting that sense talking about it. And Australians love that sort of stuff. I mean, because we have got to be able to relate to the person we want to lead the country. Not necessarily from party to party, but whoever the dude is or female, woman who's going to lead this country, we want to be able to relate to that individual. And you come across as very relatable. You have relatability. Where did that come from? How did you - were you always that kid? You know, good at that? Or did you sort of learn that process through the years of being, you know, starting off as a parliamentarian in early days, or starting off in the political scene early days? Where do you get that from?
PRIME MINISTER: I just try to be myself. I think not having that sense of destiny helps.
BOURIS: Yeah.
PRIME MINISTER: So there's not a sense of -
BOURIS: Entitlement, you mean?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, a sense of entitlement. You know, I don't take for granted. And I also understand the responsibility that I have in having this privilege. Something that happened on the first day of Parliament, before Parliament comes back after any election, there's a service at the War Memorial.
BOURIS: Your first day?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, as Prime Minister. This is in 2022, and I'm there, you give a speech about a fallen veteran, and it's a solemn ceremony paying respect to the men and women who've given their lives to defend and to create Australia. And it's a good occasion. I got back in the car to go to The Lodge, and I got a text message of a photo of me from a mate of mine, Cherie, who I grew up with in public housing in Camperdown. And it was a photo taken from the balcony there at the War Memorial. And I texted her back saying, ‘are you here?' And she texted back, saying, ‘yes.’ So I rang her, and what had happened was that eight of the people who I grew up with in Camperdown in this sort of little public housing estate that was across the road from the Children's Hospital, surrounded by the Weston's biscuit factory and McNulty’s foundry and all this industrial area. So it's just one block of housing, and a long way to the next home, private or public, anywhere around. They had got together - one of them, Clayton, is now a wharfie in Freo. Wendy lives in Melbourne. Donna’s in the eastern suburbs. They're all Souths supporters, by the way. They had travelled, one of the things social media can do is keep people connected. They'd all decided their mate, who they grew up with and I've kept in contact with them, was becoming Prime Minister of Australia, and they all travelled together to Canberra.
BOURIS: A very proud moment for them.
PRIME MINISTER: It was so good. It was so uplifting. And I had them all round to dinner at The Lodge. So the night before I went through the formal process of the Parliament, I'd been sworn in by the Governor General of course earlier. But that process of the first day of Parliament as Prime Minister, they were all there. And the night before they had dinner at The Lodge. And I can't think of anything better about our country, that people, you know, all good people, humble people, hard-working people with themselves and their partners, there at The Lodge. It was such a, a really important moment for me. One of the moments of my life.
BOURIS: It's interesting because as I was listening to that I thought to myself, the difference between what you're relaying to me as a really important moment, which it is an important moment especially be able to enjoy the moment or absorb the moment with some friends of yours that you went to school with. Lifelong friends, and family too, I guess. But then I go, I watched the Inauguration of Trump a night or so ago, and he surrounded himself with all the mega stars, and it's a different style. He's a totally different style to you. I know him. I knew him during The Apprentice period, reasonably well. It's a different style of person. And then, I look at Australians compared to Americans, and I wonder to myself, and I just wonder, because I don't know, are Australians more interested in relating to their leader as a good person who has good values, who remembers, let's call it the, I don't want to say smaller people, but let's call it the people who he grew up with who aren't famous, but famous to you, but not famous generally. Is it better to be that person from an Australian point of view? Electoral point of view? Do we want that, or do we want someone more like Trump, who surrounds himself with Zuckerberg and, you know, etc, etc, Musk, etc? What do you think about that? Do you ever think because, I mean, you must watch all this stuff yourself. Do you ever go through the process and say well, ‘I'm Anthony Albanese, I'm me, I can only be me, I can't be someone else, but I do want to win the election for my party.’ Do you think to yourself, ‘do I have to perform a bit differently?’ Do you ever think that to yourself?
PRIME MINISTER: I think Australians can spot someone who's trying to be something that they're not. It's one of those things -
BOURIS: You’ve got to be yourself?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah. If you think about the language that we use. We say ‘he's fair dinkum, she’s fair dinkum’, we say, ‘keep it real’. A lot of our phraseology is about that.
BOURIS: It's indicative of maybe what people want?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, we relate to each other very directly as well. You know, we stir each other up, we have a different sense of humour I think as well. You know, we can have a crack at each other, at our mates, without causing offence. But I think we, as well, have avoided some of what's occurred in the United States, which is anger and polarisation.
BOURIS: Yeah, division.
PRIME MINISTER: One of the things I'm trying to do as Prime Minister, I hope, is appeal to people's better angels as well. Not appeal to division. And I think that's really important for who we are, that we keep that social cohesion here. You know, we're a multicultural nation, and we have people of different faiths, different backgrounds, different views. We've got to be able to be respectful and have that dialogue without the anger that we see in some of American politics, and indeed, politics around the world. I think, it has been exacerbated, I think, that process by social media as well. You know, people will say things on social media, I don't look at the comments, they'll say things that they would never say face to face. And they do it anonymously.
BOURIS: Do you feel right now, I must admit I watch Paul Murray, but I also listen to ABC in the mornings so I try to balance things out, and I watch him. And of course, you know, last night seeing the polls, there was a poll that came through last night. It sort of is sort of indicating globally, Canada, United States, some parts of Europe, not yet UK, but Starmer is having a bit of a tough time at the moment. Do you ever think to yourself or do you feel to yourself, and I'm sure you’ve got an adviser, but there could be a movement against what Labor, your party, has stood for over the past number of years? And more going towards the right, and therefore put you at a disadvantage relative to your polling, for example, where you know Dutton is sort of close and the Coalition’s above? Do you feel as though you're sometimes pushing against a tide? A few years ago the other tide was in your favour, and then, and you can't control tides. These are things beyond your control, people's general feelings. But do you feel as though that is what could be occurring, and if so, what do you do about it and how do you manage yourself? How does Anthony Albanese get up and say, ‘right, I don't care what the momentum is, I'm going to attack this.’
PRIME MINISTER: I think you have to deal with things that you can change. So, one of the challenges that we've had to deal with in government is global inflation. Now that peaked overseas, double digits in the UK. We've had recessions around the world in advanced economies. New Zealand is still in a recession right now, a deep one. So you need to worry about what you can control. If you try to think that you have power over everything that happens in the global economy, you'll just, it would cause such frustration, you'll end up not being able to be as effective as you can. If you say, ‘okay, how can we make a difference?’ So with global inflation, our challenge has been how do we get inflation down without just putting, you know, helping people at the same time with cost of living pressures that we know are on there. And so some of the economists would tell us, ‘you can only get inflation down if people are thrown on the scrap heap and unemployment rises.’ That's not a Labor approach. Our approach will not leave people behind.
BOURIS: Can we talk about that Prime Minister? So, and I think that's an important point, you know, cost living is obviously at the top of the list. You've obviously done your surveys and polling, you know what's important. As I see the surveys, cost living is one of the most important ones. Environment used to be, it’s sort of dropped a few down. And then cost living through inflation. And you made a really important point, Labor's policy relative to inflation. So generally speaking, when you have high interest rates for a long period of time, traditionally both in Australia and other parts of the world, unemployment tends to suffer. In other words, the unemployment rate tends to rise. But you know, Labor is about looking after, or one of its major constituencies is the, it's called the working class, or people with jobs. And you've managed and your Treasurer, Dr Jim, has managed to hopefully do the perfect scenario. Get interest rate reductions, they’re not here yet, but get interest rate reductions, but at the same time without the labour market suffering. So you know, unemployment is around for 4.1 per cent. I do know that the RBA would like to see, not would like to see a bigger number, but expect to see bigger number, based on modelling of about 4.5 or 4.6. But no one ever lands exactly where they want to land. That's either a lot more, maybe 5 or a lot less. But that's a hard one to manage. And the RBA is an independent body. You as the Government, and Treasury comes under you, you as the Government, don't want to see people put out of their jobs. How hard has it been over the past period to manage that policy? In other words, make sure unemployment does not kick up to 4.6 or 4.7 or closer to 5 which, by the way, is the long term average. But even blokes like Stephen Koukoulas, who is a good mate of mine. Koukie and I have a bit of fun every month. And he was Julia Gillard’s leading economic adviser. Even Koukie says to me, ‘mate unemployment has got to get beyond four and a half, in a modelling sense.’ You know, the so called non-accelerating ratio of unemployment has to be above 4.5 in order for us, for the Reserve Bank Board to be convinced that it's time to reduce interest rates. How do you play that game? And do you sit down and talk to Jim like daily? I mean, what's the dynamics of this stuff?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's just like landing a 747, on a helicopter pad. Trying to get inflation down whilst keeping employment strong, whilst looking after people with cost of living relief.
BOURIS: Can you do all of those things?
PRIME MINISTER: The stats are pretty good. Inflation's got a 2 in front of it. Unemployment has gone from 3.9 to 4, but that's pretty good. We've got real wages growing. And we've created 1.1 million jobs since we came to Office. Those statistics are remarkable. And there is nowhere in the world you would rather be than Australia, having those stats. So sometimes economic theory doesn't play out in practice, because it's important that an economy works for people, not the other way around. And that we don't take people out of the equation, like those stats.
BOURIS: So stats aren’t more important than the people?
PRIME MINISTER: People are what matter. So if you talk about, 4.1, 4.5 what difference does it make? Well, that means a couple hundred thousand people are losing their job, and people being worried about putting food on the table. It's a real difference is there. And so we've been determined to design cost of living relief in a way that has put that downward pressure on inflation. So Cheaper Child Care helps boost workforce participation, because women are more able to stay in work or work an extra day or two, whilst keeping costs down for people. Free TAFE is giving people skills that they need for their first job as an apprentice, or retraining for a new job, whilst giving them cost of living relief. Our Energy Bill Relief has made a difference, putting that downward pressure at a time where, because of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, there's all the pressure the other way around. And importantly as well, when you keep people in jobs, that has an impact - fiscal policy to use the economic term - you're getting more revenue because people are paying taxes rather than you paying welfare to people. So we produced two budget surpluses, and we've cut debt by some eighty billion dollars as a direct result of what we have done. Now I'm really proud that we essentially have got those measures right. It has been difficult. It's meant we haven't been able to do everything that we could. But it does mean that when something comes before the Cabinet, or before the Budget Committee, which is called the Expenditure Review Committee, we look at, okay, not just - is this worthwhile? Because there's lots of worthwhile things. But what impact will it have on inflation? What impact will it have on jobs? And the shorthand is, what's the impact on people? And we know that inflation hurts the poor more. If you've got less money in your pocket, then it has a bigger impact. So, we know that there's an equity issue here as well. So, I think we've got - if you had of said to me, 'would you take something where inflation was down, employment was up, real wages were up, and you had better fiscal policy, better budget outcomes, would you take all of that?' I'd say, 'you bet I would.'
BOURIS: But those things are rarely available all at once.
PRIME MINISTER: Exactly, which is why it's remarkable that we've been able to get to that point. Now, we know that there's more to do, and we know there are big challenges as well. One of the things that government has to do, though, is to deal with immediate challenges that come before you, that some of which you're not expecting. No one was saying in the 2022 election that the land war in Europe between Russia and Ukraine would still be going in 2025. I mean, that just wasn't what all the intelligence was suggesting. So you’ve got to deal with those things that have occurred, but always keep your eye on the longer term. And one of the things I say is that, ‘we're navigating turbulent seas, but you've got to keep your eye on the horizon,’ which is what we've tried to do with things like aged care reform. The biggest reform this century that we're delivering to make sure that the system's sustainable. When we were elected, it was described with one word of, ‘neglect.’ So we had to do that. Child care reform - how do we make sure that every child gets access to early learning if they choose to do so, and families decide to go down that road? So always having our eye on those bigger reform things, the longer term things. You can't build major infrastructure overnight. Sometimes you need to make decisions that you won't get to see the outcome of. That's important as well, while you're dealing with those immediate pressures that you confront.
BOURIS: It's one of the big cost of living issues, of course, is for those people who borrowed during COVID period, borrowing at 1.99 per cent in some cases, but in other cases 2.1, they're now paying 6 per cent. A lot of them, because the interest rate was so low they could borrow a lot more than they could today because they were assessed differently. Now they're paying a lot more money. So, a lot of people who have mortgages would be saying to you, ‘Prime Minister, my biggest cost of living outcome is my mortgage payments.’ Or, someone who might be affected by increases in rents as well. You're either renting or you're paying a mortgage, one of the two, or you might be living with mum and dad, but generally it’s one or the other. And given that the Reserve Bank meets in maybe three weeks -
PRIME MINISTER: February 18.
BOURIS: February 18, correct.
PRIME MINISTER: Very focused.
BOURIS: You're very focused. And then the half yearly, or the December numbers, half year or yearly number to December is going to come out in a couple of days from this interview. That is, you know, inflation, growth, GDP, unemployment, etc. Can you give us a sense of where, I mean, I know that they're independent, and you don't get to see the ABS stats before anybody else, everybody gets to see them at the same time. I get all that. But you know, you're talking to the Reserve Bank, you know, you got Jim who there must be talking to Michele Bullock, the Governor. You know, I know they're independent, but there must be discussions. Are you getting a sense for Australians, are we going to get some relief on interest rates soon?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, certainly when you have, interest rates are of course impacted by inflation, is the big driver. And when you have inflation, it had a 6 in front of it when we were elected. It’s now got a 2 in front of it. All of these different indicators in inflation, they're all heading in the right direction. We'll wait and see what the figures show this week, they’re the quarterly figures that come out, but the month to month figures have been very good, and the last quarterly figures were good also. So we've done, in my view, we've done our bit. Now, the Reserve Bank are independent, but obviously people do want to see a decrease, and it's something that we're doing our bit to create the circumstances where the independent Reserve Bank can say, ‘right -
BOURIS: Can you argue the case with them? Can you say, ‘listen, Michele, we get it, but, you know, we looked at the numbers and everything's heading the right direction.’ Do you get the chance to argue the case?
PRIME MINISTER: No, we don't. The Reserve Bank Board meets over a couple of days, and we're very important at keeping the lines separate. Of course, the Reserve Bank, I think, I can say this, made a mistake when they said that the cash rate would stay at 0.1 till 2024, that clearly wasn't the case. It didn't happen. Interest rates started to rise under the former Government and then kept rising. The inflation figures in that March 2022 quarter before we were elected were 2.1 per cent in that quarter, just one quarter. Now, you multiply that by four, and you get a diabolical outcome.
BOURIS: The December number was 7.8. So yeah -
PRIME MINISTER: And then the March 2022 budget, of course, predicted a $78 billion surplus. There's a whole lot of cash splashes involved in that, the last budget of the former Government. Now we had to turn that around. We turned that $78 billion deficit into a $22 billion surplus. That was hard work. And Jim Chalmers and Katy Gallagher, the Finance Minister, deserve a lot of the credit for that. A lot of hard work was done to make sure that we turned around the ship, if you like, to make sure that government budget policy was taking pressure off inflation, not putting it on. And that has shown up in the fact that you've had that fall in inflation, down to having a 2 in front of it. We await, there will be a lot of attention on the figures. But I certainly understand how important this is for people, because people tell me, and also when you look at the consumer confidence as well, one of the things that gives me heart is all of the big four banks and others as well do, there was an Essential survey yesterday that speak about, ‘do people think things are going to get better?’ And that has turned around remarkably.
BOURIS: In 2025?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, it's very positive. Some of that might be coming out of the Summer. Australians tend to be more upbeat, and it's a great place to be, of course, at this time of the year. But also, I think people can see the difference that it is making. And one of the things that's made a real difference as well, this time last year I went along to the National Press Club and announced what I think the gutsiest call I've made as Prime Minister to say the tax cuts that were going to benefit primarily people like ourselves, we’re going to change that, and we're going to make sure that everyone gets a crack. Every Australian taxpayer gets a tax cut. And we did that. It was criticised, massively, at the time, but was the right thing to do. And what that has done - together with wages now increasing more than inflation - is it means more dollars in people's pockets at a time when they have needed it. Now, has that solved all of the issues? No. Are people still under pressure? Yes. But it has made a positive difference and had we not done that, then people would have been worse off at the time that we're speaking right now.
BOURIS: So if, I know you can't say this because you don't know, but - and you don't have any inside information, I get it - because you know that they're an independent body. What do you reckon? Do you reckon that February, we're going to get a rate reduction? By the way, anybody who’s listening don't go betting on this on the spot or whatever it is, but I mean, how do you feel?
PRIME MINISTER: I can't even speculate on it. But what I can say is that the inflationary situation is a lot better than the one that we inherited. And so we know that people are under pressure because of interest rates increasing, particularly people who made a decision based upon advice from the RBA Governor at the time. And you know, we've done what we can to turn that around, and we've done that while keeping the economy growing as well. So interest rates, by the way, have started to decrease in the United States, in Canada -
BOURIS: New Zealand -
PRIME MINISTER:In New Zealand. But they're still higher than they are here in most of those places. Because they went much higher, because inflation was worse.
BOURIS: And they also started putting their rates up a lot earlier than us.
PRIME MINISTER: That’s right. We clearly - I think that without being critical, of course, of the Reserve Bank, quite clearly if you look at what was happening around the world, our interest rates stayed at that 0.1 level for longer than they were overseas, even though inflation was rising, including here in Australia.
BOURIS: So if we just talk about cost living, and obviously a big cost living item is rent. And rent comes down, the amount of rent someone could charge, comes down to the amount of property, comes down to the supply and demand game. There's a lot of demand. We've had a fairly big growth in terms of immigration or Australia’s population generally, largely driven by immigration relative to the amount of properties that are available for rent. And landlords are probably paying higher interest rate anyway on their mortgages, so they've had to put their rent up, because they could. There's a lot of people out there doing it tough when it comes to the rental, and it seems to be the only solution for that has to be more housing.
PRIME MINISTER: Correct.
BOURIS: Affordability is correlated to the amount of supply of property, relative to the amount of demand for property. And you did announce, or your Government announced, maybe a year or so ago, because I remember it was at the AFR Property Summit, I was one of the speakers, and they talked about the, I think, it was 1.2 million new homes over a period of five years, I think?
PRIME MINISTER: Up to 2030.
BOURIS: Up to 2030, okay, so it’s not tracking great. But what do you think about that? So what are you going to say to Australians who, you know, are thinking about voting for Anthony Albanese or his party, what are you going to say to them in terms of where you think rents are going to go?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we think that the latest figures show a much improved situation.
BOURIS: In terms of supply?
PRIME MINISTER: With rents, compared with what was going on. Supply is the key.
BOURIS: Okay, so I might just put that in context, Prime Minister. What you’re saying is the rate of growth of rents is not growing at the same pace it has been growing over the past couple of years. But nonetheless, it has grown quite a lot.
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely.
BOURIS: Relative to wages, for example.
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely, and that's put pressure on people. That's why we've had the two increases of Rent Assistance in the last two budgets that have increased Rent Assistance by 45 per cent is what we have done.
BOURIS: It's means tested though, Rent Assistance?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, it is. But for the most vulnerable, but that's why also we've got our $32 billion Homes for Australia Plan. So this morning, two elements of that, this morning I was in Parramatta and announced $58 million of projects in New South Wales. It's about infrastructure that facilitates housing being built. So, sewerage, transport corridors, energy connections as well. That will result or help for 25,000 additional homes to be built.
BOURIS: In other words, developers can go, can see they should go and build more housing there because the infrastructure's there -
PRIME MINISTER: Because the infrastructure is there. But also we have had three major elements. One, increased funding for social and affordable housing - so our Housing Australia Future Fund. Today I was also, then after Parramatta, I was in Marrickville - 61 new homes which are either social housing or affordable housing for essential workers, being done by St George Community Housing. Amazing medium density development, real quality in places where there were three terrace houses. You knock three over, you build 61. Chris Minns is doing, I think, a great job -
BOURIS: Brilliant.
PRIME MINISTER: In addressing, in a real way with people, the honest truth, which is, we need more density. That doesn't mean inappropriate development. It means quality development, medium density, where it is appropriate. And this housing development I was at today, it's on Addison Road, Marrickville, across the road just about from The Vic on The Park Hotel, next to the bus line, you can walk to a train line, close to all amenity. The people there were wrapped. I met Lucy, who has two kids. She has suffered from having to move every year as a private renter. She now has the security of a roof over her head that is permanent, and her life had been changed by this, and that is important. But secondly as well, our Build to Rent Scheme, it was delayed in the Senate. How do you give incentives to property developers to build private rentals? And we worked on that with the Property Council, with the Master Builders and others, to make sure that we got that right. That passed the Senate finally, it was held up over a period of time. So that's important. So social housing, private rentals, but also home ownership. Now, one element of that is getting interest rates down, getting inflation down, the other element is our Help to Buy Scheme that will help 40,000 people through shared equity. So instead of - to put it simplistically - if you have a property that's worth a million dollars, but some of that shared equity or ownership is owned by the government -
BOURIS: In other words, they put in 40 per cent, you put in 60 per cent.
PRIME MINISTER: Then you have to borrow less. You just need a 2 per cent deposit, and if you want, and either the government gets it’s return back when the property's sold, or you can buy back the government share if you're in a financial position to do so down the track. Now, that's operated really successfully in Western Australia since the 1970s. So we think there are a range of solutions to this. You can't click your fingers and solve it overnight. You've got to be honest with people. But that's why that infrastructure development is important. Supporting home ownership is important. But also private and public rentals as well, is absolutely critical. But it's all about supply, which is why we're working cooperatively with state and territory governments. So we've put a target for each of the state and territory governments, a pot of money at the end, an incentive if they reach their targets, they get the share of the billions of dollars that were put on the table from the Commonwealth.
BOURIS: Harry Triguboff was sitting right in that very chair just before Christmas promoting his book. Great guy, Harry, one of Australia's icons. And I said to Harry, ‘how do we solve this problem?’ He just said, ‘you've got to talk to all governments, Premiers, Prime Ministers and Mayors.’
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, absolutely.
BOURIS: And he said, ‘we just need more property, and we need more high rises.’ He said, ‘because we don't have enough land, you can't just keep building houses.’ We'd all love to have a house. Everyone wants a backyard. Everyone would love that. But like, given Australia's topography and geography it’s a difficult thing to do. We’ve just got to have more density. And Harry is sort of somewhat exasperated in major cities like Sydney. He doesn't do anything in Melbourne. Not a lot in Brisbane anymore. But he loves the Gold Coast because there is a council there, big council, that is pro-development. Is it frustrating as Prime Minister to have to navigate all the agendas at the other levels of government, which actually are the ones who would ultimately approve things? You know, right down to the City Council here in Sydney, for example. You know, it's our Mayor, City Mayor, gets voted in on a certain mandate, and her electorate says, ‘we like what we’ve currently got, we don't want more.’ So she's got to do what the electorate says, and it may not necessarily be what you would like to see, or what Chris Minns would like to see. Therefore, that sort of, it's a bit like the interest rate discussion, you know, you’ve got too many factors you have to try and weigh up, and too many people to please. Is there a sort of, a defect, in our process in Australia that unlike America, getting somebody to just put out executive orders, the PM has to sort of play the game with every level. And it happened during COVID too, and it's happening right now with the problem with the antisemitism. You have to, last night, yesterday afternoon, you called everybody in. Let's have a national discussion about this. Is that frustrating?
PRIME MINISTER: Look if you were designing Australia again, I don't think you'd have three tiers of government. My ideal would be two tiers - Commonwealth Government, a national government, and a regional government. But it is what is, you have to deal with it. But you do get different responses as well. Years ago, there's a development in Marrickville right on the station called Revolution Apartments. It's in the old Marrickville RSL site. And I had a group of people come to see me, and they were totally hostile to the development. And I said to them, ‘what better location is there for medium density?’ I think it's probably six or seven stories high, and they got additional apartments allowed by having some affordable housing development in there. Importantly, they don't need a car space for every flat, because it's right on Marrickville Station.
BOURIS: So less cars.
PRIME MINISTER: It's right on Illawarra Road there. And they said to me, ‘you have to represent our views.’
BOURIS: As a local member.
PRIME MINISTER: As the local Member. And I said, ‘I disagree with you.’ I support this development. I supported as well, there's another site, a Mirvac development, which has won awards, on the corner of Marrickville Road and Livingston Road -
BOURIS: One of our great builders.
PRIME MINISTER: For the library there, which has won Australia's best building awards. So, you had - it was the old Marrickville Hospital site. You had appropriate development, as it's on a hill, so as you go down they got extra height so it measures the same at the top but it's higher the further down the hill you go. It's got some open space. It's got a community facility with a new fantastic library for Marrickville with a coffee shop underneath. It's an awesome development. Again, without being two party political, the Greens Party on the Council have opposed any development. And what that will do, as well, is change the character of the area. My area is gentrifying as inner areas are, and you need to have a mix, a social mix as well in terms of incomes. That's why today's development, I think, was so exciting, having 61 units, but some of them for local nurses, essential workers as well. You get that mix there. That's important. And I think that you can have courage from mayors. You've got courage from Chris Minns, showing leadership in New South Wales as well, and I, as the national leader, support appropriate development. You look at Parramatta, where I was today, that has been transformed. Part of that is quite high density, but amazing living. You'll have - the people there will have access to amazing restaurants, a heavy rail line, a light rail line, buses and the new metro. They're next to Parramatta Stadium to go to events. They’ve got the Riverside Theatre. That community has been developed in a way that has just lifted up the liveability of that city of Parramatta. And it's meant that big businesses, the ASX big businesses, are locating there and that's a good thing. That means jobs in that community as well.
BOURIS: And investment. I’m getting around it because I know you’re on tight schedule, but one thing we have to discuss, or I'd like to discuss if it's possible, and you can give it as much time as you think is appropriate. But the antisemitism that's currently out there at the moment, and we've seen quite a number of events, fires, graffiti, but something people are now starting to push into saying 'is this is nearly terrorism.' Nearly. I mean, I don't know what the actual definition of terrorism is, and a lot of people are putting a lot of pressure on you, Prime Minister, to be more reactive perhaps, in relation to what's going on, particularly in the suburbs of Sydney and Maroubra in South Sydney, for that matter. What do you make of what's going on? I mean, I can't believe this is actually happening. But what do you make of what's going on?
PRIME MINISTER: No, it's horrific, and what we're seeing is crimes committed and in some cases, of course, the state police designate these issues, like the attack on the Adass Synagogue in Melbourne was a terrorist act. And the idea, yesterday morning waking up and having to go to a child care centre -
BOURIS: Yeah.
PRIME MINISTER: For goodness sake, that had been targeted with an offensive racist slogan, but with a fire being lit, you just, you shake your head. I got the text message yesterday morning, very early. I had to read it a few times just to come to terms with it, because it's hard to comprehend what takes someone to engage in that barbaric act. Now, we have acted from before the Opera House demonstration, I was on radio calling for that not to go ahead. We are a harmonious society, so we've taken a range of actions from legislating to outlaw Nazi symbols and hate symbols, to setting up a special envoy on antisemitism, to providing increased support for security around places of worship and schools and other community organisations, to setting up a National Student Ombudsman as well. We have established Operation Avalite at a national level to make sure there's coordination between the Commonwealth, as in the Australian Federal Police, with state police jurisdictions and our intelligence agencies, including ASIO. Now, the Australian Federal Police Commissioner yesterday made public information that some of this it would appear, that evidence is there clearly, that some of this is people being paid. That is criminal elements. Not the people engaged in activity having a motivation themselves, essentially being paid criminals. Being paid to undertake these crimes, these activities.
BOURIS: But by people in Australia or foreign actors?
PRIME MINISTER: It's not clear. Potentially. What they've said is that our intelligence agencies are also looking at the potential that there are foreign actors involved. Now, there's an ongoing investigation. I've been briefed about those issues, and I receive a daily brief, an intelligence briefing, of course, on issues across the board. But also we've had specific briefings. Our National Security Committee have met about this, I’ve met with as well the input of the heads of state polices. Importantly as well, more information has been put out there over the last 24 hours that I think is important. Yesterday, I stood with Premier Minns after visiting the child care centre in Maroubra, and the Acting Police Commissioner went through the details. 40 people have been charged over antisemitic incidents. Many of them are people who have been charged with serious crimes. So they've been arrested, charged and they’re in the clink because they've been denied bail.
BOURIS: Good.
PRIME MINISTER: And another one that has happened just today, just this morning. That is, strong action has been taken. Now, because with police investigations, sometimes you don't want all the information being out there and therefore undermining the success of operations. But the operations are underway. I can say very firmly, as I'm confident, as are the police and authorities, that these people will be caught, they will be charged, they will be prosecuted to the full force of the law, and that is what we need to do. But we need to do something else as well. We need to reinforce the need for social harmony and to bring Australians together. One of the concerns I have with the attempt to politicise some of these issues, is that it denies agency of those people committing these crimes, that somehow says that they are not responsible. Now there is no excuse. You can have different views about international policy. You cannot bring those disputes here in a way which is hateful. That is what defines our success as a multicultural, harmonious nation. And anyone seeking to undermine that should be called out on it.
BOURIS: Final question for you, Prime Minister, and I appreciate your time. It's going to be a pretty tough period over the next, between here and May, near an election. You’ve got your new joint up there on the Central Coast -
PRIME MINISTER: I won’t be there for some time.
BOURIS: And of course, you got your fiancé, Jodie. And congratulations. And in due course no doubt you'll be tying the knot. Do you ever think to yourself, and you’ve got your footy team too, and you’ve got a good life now compared to what you grew up as, anyway. Do you ever think to yourself, ‘where am I going to get the energy to take this on, because it's just coming at me from every direction?’ Newspapers people write stuff about you. Then you've got your Opposition who are going to be directing traffic at your way. Why do you do it? You're not doing it because it's your job. I know it's your job, but you're not doing it because you've got to turn up to the bank and work to pay the mortgage. What is it? Why are you doing it? You know, as a private individual, I wonder why a politician would put themselves through the Prime Ministership role. Minister is different. Local Member’s different.
PRIME MINISTER: Sure.
BOURIS: Prime Minister is right on the edge, and you're a target. You've got a target on you, and they're going to come at you from every direction for any little thing. Why do you, why does Anthony Albanese do that?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm passionate about this country. I love it. And I think we are the greatest country on Earth. But I think this decade will determine what Australia looks like in 2050. And we can either seize the opportunities which are there, or we can be complacent and watch the world move past us. There's nowhere you'd rather be. We have everything under the ground, and in the sky, best solar all around the world, but under the ground we have lithium, cobalt, copper, and vanadium, all of these things -
BOURIS: Iron Ore.
PRIME MINISTER: That will power the globe in the 21st Century. There's nowhere better positioned to benefit from green hydrogen, which will be, when we're much older we can do a podcast together. We can call it ‘two old blokes’ or something -
BOURIS: Two old farts.
PRIME MINISTER: We can talk about how important it is to Australia in 2040. We have incredible opportunities. But the other thing that I have, I think, that keeps me going. I think when you grow up as I did, you know, interestingly the title of this podcast isn't that different from the title of my biography, which is called ‘Telling It Straight.’
BOURIS: Straight Talk.
PRIME MINISTER: I grew up with just my mum. She instilled in me a confidence about, you know, I could be who I wanted to be. She was always not very well. She lived just for 65 years in the one council house, that became, then state department took it over, for her whole life there in Camperdown. She left school before she got any qualifications. She had scarlet fever as a kid. She's just someone who wasn't well, and she was spent at age 65. She was just done, checked out. And she, though, had incredible unconditional love for me, as many mums do, live through their children. And that gave me confidence. But it also meant that I was living - because she was in hospital for long periods of time - I was living by myself at a very young age, early teens, there in Camperdown getting fed by neighbours who helped look after us. And I'm tough and resilient. So one of the things that when people throw all sorts of things at you, and you know - I don't read some of the columnists, and I don't turn on to Sky after dark - is that it's predictable, too. It's just predictable. So I don't take it personally. It's like them sitting in a stand, cheering for the Roosters, if they're Roosters fans against Souths. I don't take it personally. They're cheering for their team.
BOURIS: Is what it is.
PRIME MINISTER: It is what it is. But I know with confidence that what my Government is doing is making a difference to people who need government in their lives to make a difference. But I know also that I'm someone who, because of all of that background experience I have, is able to bring together business interests, unions, civil society, engage with people across the spectrum, as comfortable in a pub as I am in a boardroom, and be optimistic about Australia's future. And I think that is one of the things that the next election will be about. Me saying, ‘we will provide more cost of living help, but we’ll also help build a stronger future,’ an optimistic vision. And my opponents being negative. You can't move forward by just saying what you're against. And when I was Opposition Leader I had a range of policies out there that we’re implementing, like the Housing Australia Future Fund, and Cheaper Child Care, and National Reconstruction Fund for new industries. All of these things we had out there. My opponents have a nuclear plan sometime in the 2040s that doesn't stack up, which is why no private sector operator will fund it. And they're saying people will be worse off. They're calling our cost of living relief a 'sugar hit.' Australians are better than that, and I'm confident that during the election campaign, we will advocate for a second term to build on the foundations that we've established in our first term.
BOURIS: One final, and it will be very quick, but what was your mum's name?
PRIME MINISTER: Maryanne.
BOURIS: If Maryanne was sitting here right now talking to her son, listening to her son, and of course, Maryanne would always be wishing you the very best in this campaign. What would you say to your Mum?
PRIME MINISTER: ‘Thank you.’ Simple as that. You know, I'm here because of sacrifices that she made. You know, people can read the book. But my mum made the difficult decision in 1963 to have a child out of wedlock. She adopted my father's name, and all of the neighbourhood - in what was a close knit neighbourhood - were told, as I was, that my father had died. And the plan at St Margaret's Darlinghurst was for me to be adopted out, which was very much a part of what occurred a lot at that time. Now, there was a nun there at the hospital, who brought me, that young baby in to her, and she knew that my mum wasn't the sort of person who would want to give up her child, would want to avoid it regardless of the circumstances that were difficult. A lot of pressure was placed on people.
BOURIS: Especially in those days.
PRIME MINISTER: In those days, in the early 60s. And my mum chose to keep me and to give me, we didn't have a lot of money, but we had everything else - something that's more important, which is that unconditional love and support. And it's remarkable that she was able to do that. Even though she didn't have much formal education herself, she encouraged me to stay on and go to year 12. I had to work my way through school and do all that, everything from Maccas to Grace Brothers to working as a paperboy and doing all those things that you do. And then I started work at the Commonwealth Bank the day after I did my last HSC exam. She sacrificed a lot for me. And one of the things that drives me is repaying that. I've got a responsibility, given the position I'm in, to work every day. And one of the things that - whatever my critics might say about me - you won't find anyone who says that I don't work my arse off.
BOURIS: Prime Minister, thank you very much.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Mark.