RAF EPSTEIN, HOST: It is not easy being an Australian Prime Minister and winning two elections. Paul Keating, Kevin Rudd, Julia Gillard, Tony Abbott, Malcolm Turnbull, Scott Morrison, they all won once. Anthony Albanese, of course, won the last one. That is why he is Prime Minister. There'll be another at end of this year or the beginning of next year. It's not easy in modern politics. Anthony Albanese, good morning.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good morning, Raf. What an intro.
EPSTEIN: Just good bit of context.
PRIME MINISTER: Welcome back.
EPSTEIN: Thank you very much. Very kind of you. We are going to have a by-election soon in the seat of Dunkley caused by the sad death of Peta Murphy. Peter Dutton mentioned crime when he was in the seat of Dunkley yesterday. Do you think crime is going to be an issue in that by-election?
PRIME MINISTER: I think the primary issue will be whether Jodie Belyea, who's our candidate, a local Frankston mum, can continue to do the extraordinary work that Peta Murphy did before her tragic death at the end of last year. Peta Murphy was a fighter, a strong advocate for that seat. She recruited Jodie to the Labor party. Jodie has a strong record of standing up for the disadvantaged and the underprivileged in the area and working with community-based organisations and I think she'll be an outstanding candidate. I know that people are doing it tough out there, but we'll continue to do what we can to make a difference. And Jodie is the one person who will be standing in this by-election who can be an advocate in Government, who can actually have a voice in Government, because obviously we're not about changing who the Government is. The Government holds 78 seats in the House of Representatives and I sincerely hope that Jodie can continue to do the work of Peta Murphy.
EPSTEIN: One more try. Here's what Peter Dutton said yesterday, that Labor is always soft on crime in his words.
PETER DUTTON, LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: You've allowed over the course of last 18 months for these organised crime groups to really take hold. And it's no mistake that in Labor states around the country you're seeing a blowout in law and order problems because Labor is always soft when it comes to crime and law and order.
EPSTEIN: Prime Minister, any response?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Peter Dutton's just got an extreme right wing negative megaphone on any issue and he's out there always trying to pretend as well that apparently, according to that grab, there was no crime 18 months ago before the change of Federal Government. We know that that's not the case, your listeners know that that is not the case either and he will always come up with a 24-hours based grab. Last week his big statement was to call for a boycott of Woolworths, as well as, I assume, Aldi and Kmart. They employ over 200,000 Australians.
EPSTEIN: I'll come to supermarkets if I get a chance.
PRIME MINISTER: He needs to explain whether that boycott is forever or whether it's just until Australia Day and what the impact of those people who work for these companies will be.
EPSTEIN: We'll see if we get a chance to get him on the show. Prime Minister, you mentioned continuing Peta Murphy's work. She chaired a committee that recommended you basically ban all gambling ads. Are you going to continue her work in that way?
PRIME MINISTER: We're giving consideration to the Murphy Inquiry’s recommendations. We'll do that in a considered way. That's the way that my Government operates. They'd had enough. You went through the turnstile, essentially, of Prime Ministers that has occurred over the last couple of decades. You're quite right that no Prime Minister has been re-elected, having served a term since John Howard in 2004. I think what Australians were looking for when they changed government last time round in May of 2022, was a Government that acted in a considered and responsible and orderly way. That is what they are getting.
EPSTEIN: Difficult to water down a gambling ban, isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER: We'll have a considered approach to it and an announcement at an appropriate time once these measures are all considered by the Cabinet. And I know the Communications Minister, Michelle Rowland, I've had a couple of discussions with her about the recommendations of the inquiry and also other work which has been done. We know that gambling does have a negative impact, particularly on lower income earners. And it's something that I've expressed my concern about, as well as someone who isn't impacted, that is, I'm not influenced to get online and put a bet on because I see a gambling ad during the footy, but I am annoyed by it. And I think that is the response of many consumers who just want to watch the footy or the tennis or some other game that's on TV without being put through the ads.
EPSTEIN: Anything without the gambling ads please. You just mentioned the supermarkets earlier. Different topic, though. Coles and Woolies have essentially said they are putting up their prices not for profiteering, but because of inflation. Do you believe them?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think the problem for the big supermarket chains is that when people look at the prices that they're paying off the farmers and then look at what the prices they're charging, is that people can see there's a discrepancy there. That's why I met with Dr Craig Emerson just now, just this morning, and had a good discussion with him and the Treasurer, Jim Chalmers, about the direction of the inquiry which he is taking. We want to make sure that consumers are looked after, and I think that's what people expect.
EPSTEIN: People might expect you to say whether or not you believe the supermarkets.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think that there's a discrepancy there, simple as that. And as well, people look at the profits that supermarkets are making. People know that there is effectively a big duopoly who have considerable market power. And the problem for farmers, for example, is if they're wanting to sell their goods, and particularly if they're goods in food, which has time limits in terms of its shelf life, then they have a restricted capacity. So, we need to look at the full range of measures that's available. At the moment there's a voluntary code of conduct, and one of the things that Dr Emerson will be looking at is whether that should be shifted into a more mandatory form. And in addition to that, Jim Chalmers is having discussions with the ACCC about other measures that could be considered so that there's proper transparency as well, is what we need. And that's something that should be welcomed by the supermarkets so that everyone can see what the processes are.
EPSTEIN: Prime Minister, you mentioned that discrepancy. I guess that sort of inflation in general, everyone can feel it, especially with things like insurance bills and utility bills. Why is the Government waiting until the May Budget to do more to help people? Why wait till May?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we're not necessarily doing that. We had further measures kick in on January 1, a range of the measures that we have to provide support for people in terms of increased payments and increased measures.
EPSTEIN: But no new announcements, I presume, until the Budget?
PRIME MINISTER: No, that's not necessarily the case at all. I've sought for advice of Treasury and Finance. We have a meeting of my Cabinet this morning. The Government continues to work and will continue to look at whatever measures we can undertake. We're very pleased that inflation fell from 4.9 to 4.3 per cent, meaning that that is the smallest annual increase since January 2022. But we know that the cost of living pressures are there, and we know that the fight against inflation is not over. We need to continue to put that pressure on, which is why what I've said is that we'll continue to look for targeted cost of living relief, how we can make a difference for people without adding to inflation. And that's one of the reasons why we've delivered the first Budget surplus in 15 years.
EPSTEIN: That's interesting. So, we might get some new measures before, maybe. You said, without adding to inflation. Do you think the stage three tax cuts, and this isn't about their merits for who does and doesn't get the money, but do you think the stage three tax cuts in the middle of the year will add to inflation?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the tax cuts have, of course, been factored in by the RBA in their considerations already. We think that in terms of income tax relief, that is one way that can assist people because it does mean extra dollars in people's pockets.
EPSTEIN: But it's going to add to a bump in inflation, isn't it? Like it will contribute, I understand. I mean, I'll get money, great. But it's going to add to inflation.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's factored in by the RBA already and factored in by Treasury and Finance.
EPSTEIN: The Prime Minister of Australia, Anthony Albanese, is with you. You are listening to ABC radio, Melbourne, 1300 222 774 is the phone number. I will get to your calls later on this morning. Prime Minister, if we can turn to the Middle East, the Foreign Minister, Penny Wong, is just about to depart to go to countries including Israel. Why is the Foreign Minister not going to the homes where some Israelis were murdered on October 7?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, she's meeting with the survivors and families of the victims of the October 7 terror attack that occurred. And this is about prioritising the delivery of humanitarian assistance, upholding of international law, avoiding regional escalation, steps needed to work towards a lasting peace. That’s the focus of the visit.
EPSTEIN: Do you think it makes a difference if she doesn't go to their homes?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think that I'm surprised that this has been raised in terms of, there was a call for her to visit, she's visiting. It's not about an opportunity for a photo op. People have seen the devastating impact as well. She'll be talking firsthand with the people who've been impacted, both the survivors of that attack, but also the families, as both the Foreign Minister and I have met with families and friends of the people who remain, some of them who remain hostages with this dreadful attack that occurred. And I think that having meetings, as the Foreign Minister is, in Jordan, in Israel, in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and the UAE, is an important contribution to support what is an international diplomatic effort towards a durable peace that everyone wants to see in the Middle East.
EPSTEIN: Do you think it's reasonable for Israel's actions to end up in the death of this many Palestinians?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm concerned about the death of any innocent person. And we've said very clearly there's been too many innocent lives lost, both Israeli and Palestinian.
EPSTEIN: Do you hold Israel responsible for too many Palestinian lives lost?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I want, as the resolution that I moved on the floor of the Parliament that secured bipartisan support very early on, when Parliament first met after the appalling attack by Hamas. That resolution called for the protection of innocent lives and for international humanitarian law to be respected. And I think that every loss of an innocent life is a tragedy, regardless of whether it is Israeli or Palestinian. And I think that's an appropriate position for Australia to take. One of the things that I think people are concerned about as well is community harmony here. We saw there in Melbourne, for example, provocations like demonstration being held close to the synagogue in the suburbs of Melbourne. These things are not appropriate. It's important. We're a multicultural community that have respect for each other, regardless of people's faith, people's ethnicity, people's background. And that's something that I believe is central to the Australian character and it's something that we carry into our international engagement.
EPSTEIN: Just a few more on this. One of your MPs, Julian Hill, Melbourne MP. He's worried that the Government might have given charity status, so basically, a taxpayer subsidy to some groups that fund Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Do you think Australians should be stopped from sending money to West Bank settlements in that?
PRIME MINISTER: Look, we have expressed our concern about settlements in the West Bank. That's something that's been a long standing position of Australian Governments, because settlements can be an impediment to a two-state solution.
EPSTEIN: Can be or are?
PRIME MINISTER: Are clearly, as part of any settlement that does require Israel to continue to be a state within recognised borders where people can live in peace and security, I want to see that occur with a Palestinian state where people can live in peace and security.
EPSTEIN: And to the charity status. I mean, there would be some groups funding settlements that get taxpayer charity status. One of your MPs wants you to look at it. Would you look at it?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'm not aware of that issue. So, our position is one off principle on settlements. It's something that the Israeli Government and past Israeli Governments are well aware of. And it's something that the United States, I know President Biden has expressed his concern as well, as have all those who seek a two-state solution. And if there's not a two-state solution, there is essentially no solution going forward. And people, I think, want to see an end to conflict in the Middle East. People want people to be able to live in peace and security with each other. And that is what occurs. I mean the great Australian project can be a microcosm for the world.
EPSTEIN: You can only hope.
PRIME MINISTER: We're a country where in cities and regional towns around Australia, people live next door to each other of different faiths and different backgrounds in harmony, is the generally accepted way that it occurs. Now from time to time, as we're seeing at the moment, that can be disruptive, but we want to minimise that because it's so important to show that people can have respect and that diversity can be a strength as it is in our society.
EPSTEIN: Well you can only hope. You mentioned that the US have condemned settlement, something else the US has said. South Africa's taking Israel to the international Court, accusing Israel of genocide. America says that case has no merit and is baseless. Are you going to say something like that? Are you going to take a position on that case?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the way that these cases work is that at the moment there's been no prospect or avenue for other people, other countries, if you like, to participate in this.
EPSTEIN: I mean, America has been very clear already without a formal process. Is that something the Australian Government's going to do?
PRIME MINISTER: In general our position tends to be that we don't comment on matters that are before courts. We obviously are not a participant in the process, don't intend to be a participant in the process. What we want is to see a political solution, and that is primarily what the United States has said as well, both publicly and in the discussions that I've had with the leadership in the United States. Is that arising out of this conflict, we need to have a pathway to security and peace and prosperity in the region. That's the main game. Not any court case, not anything else. That is the main game that we need to work on, that durable peace that has been absent for far too long.
EPSTEIN: Are we going to have an election here this year?
PRIME MINISTER: No, that's certainly not my intention. We have three year terms in Australia. That's a pretty short period compared with every state and territory and compared with most countries in the world, have four or five year periods. So, I think that in general as a principle, government should try to serve out their full term.
EPSTEIN: Do you want fixed terms?
PRIME MINISTER: The Labor Party's position.
EPSTEIN: Yeah, but you're going to try and pass a law to have fixed terms?
PRIME MINISTER: You need a referendum, and that's been tried twice.
EPSTEIN: You don't want to do another referendum this year?
PRIME MINISTER: That’s been tried twice and has failed twice. Again, an example of where Australians are very reluctant to change the constitution, even for something as, I think, pretty straightforward of four year terms.
EPSTEIN: Okay, I will leave it there. Prime Minister, thank you for your time today.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Raf.