RAF EPSTEIN, HOST: We all woke up to news of Iran lobbing missiles at Israel, and Israel's army has moved into Lebanon. That is just the last 24 hours. There is a potential flashpoint right here in Melbourne this weekend. October 7 is Monday, one year since the Hamas attacks and almost a year since Israel went into Gaza. The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, is in Melbourne. Thanks for coming in.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good to be with you, Raf.
EPSTEIN: Iran, Lebanon, Israel, Gaza, Yemen. Like this is, it's a regional war, isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER: It's an escalation of the conflict that we keep see occurring. We condemn Iran's actions in lobbing missiles into Israel. It's fortunate that it would appear that the Iron Dome and the actions as well of the United States have prevented any civilian casualties. But just under a week ago now, along with the United States, the UK, Canada, EU, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Qatar, we signed a declaration calling for a de-escalation, calling for an immediate ceasefire so that Israelis could return to their homes in northern Israel and Lebanese could return home to southern Lebanon. That statement said diplomacy, however, cannot succeed amid an escalation of this conflict.
EPSTEIN: You keep using the words like escalation and conflict, like it's a war, isn't it? Like how much escalation does there need to be for it to be a war?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it certainly is, I don't want to get into a definitional argument. What you have is a tragedy. There was the terrorist actions, of course, almost a year ago now, of Hamas on October 7 that were quite rightly condemned throughout the world. Then we've seen too many innocent civilians lose their life, whether they be Israelis, Palestinians or Lebanese. There does at some point need to be a diplomatic solution here.
EPSTEIN: The world looks a bit powerless, doesn't it?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you had, I think, a very powerful statement issued by the United States and other countries there just under a week ago. You have had consistently, the United States and allies, including Australia, are calling for ceasefires, calling for de-escalations, calling for the release of hostages, calling for increased aid. This is a human tragedy. And it's not some, you know, academic exercise where you're cheering this on. I think it's a tragedy for all involved.
EPSTEIN: Should pro-Palestinian protests go ahead this weekend?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there certainly shouldn't be any protests on October 7, because -
EPSTEIN: Why not?
PRIME MINISTER: Because it would be seen, I think, as incredibly provocative. It would not advance any cause. It would cause a great deal of distress.
EPSTEIN: I'm told it's going to be a vigil and a silent procession. Surely people are allowed to do that?
PRIME MINISTER: Look, in a democracy, we allow for people, indeed, it's important that people be able to express themselves peacefully. But October 7 will be one year since the largest number of deaths and murders, call it for what it is, of Jewish people, since the Holocaust. I'll be attending a vigil to commemorate that terrible day. And anything that looks like it's a celebration of that I think would cause disharmony. We need to promote social cohesion in our multicultural nation. I know that the police are making those assessments. I know in New South Wales -
EPSTEIN: In Sydney, just for everyone in Melbourne, there's a permit system in Sydney. There is not in Melbourne. In Sydney, police don't want either the protest on Sunday or the vigil on Monday to go ahead. Do you support the police stopping both Sunday and Monday?
PRIME MINISTER: You know what I support? The rule of law and the separation of powers.
EPSTEIN: So, no comment on if the police are doing nothing?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I support the police in whatever action they're taking. But they take assessments independently of government, based upon what they think is their assessment of keeping the peace. And I think it's an absolutely reasonable position for them to take.
EPSTEIN: So, a few people waved Hezbollah flags in Melbourne last Sunday. This Sunday there is another regular protest planned. Do you think those protests should go ahead on the Sunday, October 6?
PRIME MINISTER: The police will make those assessments, but I don't think there's any place for the waving of terrorist symbols this weekend, last weekend, any weekend. It's wrong. And the fact that the symbol, the flag that is being raised and waved around has a gun at its centre should be a bit of an indication that it's a violent symbol.
EPSTEIN: It may well be illegal. Is it, are you worried that it also has the potential to cause conflict in a city like Melbourne?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course. I'm incredibly worried about social cohesion. I've appointed Peter Khalil, a great Victorian who has a great deal of experience in international affairs, as a Special Envoy for Social Cohesion to me, because I'm very worried. We shouldn't bring conflict here. I think overwhelmingly, your listeners just are against the conflict. They see what's going on there, they mightn't follow it from a day to day basis, but overwhelmingly, it's not front of mind of where Australians are at. But they don't want people to bring radical ideologies here. They don't want the conflict to be brought here. Australia is not a player in this conflict. We're not a participant.
EPSTEIN: Just on the weekly protests, 51 out of 52 weeks in Melbourne. They have been largely almost totally peaceful in Melbourne. That was why I asked if you're worried about the potential for conflict.
PRIME MINISTER: I think having demonstrations is something that occur in a democracy, as it should. People have a right to express their views.
EPSTEIN: And you must have seen some bad things, like you went to protests as a young man, you must have seen people say and do dreadful things.
PRIME MINISTER: Of course.
EPSTEIN: And you're not responsible for what they did.
PRIME MINISTER: Correct. But, you know, October 7, I think that people should recognise the sensitivity which is there and have a bit of common sense and see whether their cause will be advanced or whether it will be set back. And my view very clearly is that there is nothing to be served by that. This will be, the event I'm going to in Melbourne here, will be a solemn occasion.
EPSTEIN: That's the vigil?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, as it should be. And I'll be attending with our Attorney-General I spoke with this morning. He was planning to be in Israel and due to the circumstances that have happened overnight, that visit won't be going ahead.
EPSTEIN: Peter Dutton, the Opposition Leader, regularly says you are weak. Adam Bandt says you are timid. When are you actually going to do something bold on gambling ads?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you know, Raf. What we've done in terms of strength was to change around our tax regime that was coming in on July 1. I don't think there was anything soft about that. That was a courageous decision, one that was condemned on every broadsheet when we made the decision for the first couple of days and Peter Dutton said there should be an election based upon it. Peter Dutton, I noticed recently has been out there seeming to not understand that there's a distinction between the political system and the separation of powers that's there with the judiciary and with the police saying that we should direct the police exactly on what they should do, in a rather extraordinary statement. Adam Bandt is busy opposing everything that Labor does. You have the Greens and the Coalition combining in the Senate to oppose measures like Help to Buy and other legislation that is, opposing at the moment the Future Made in Australia legislation, opposing making more things here. I don't think anyone votes Greens to help Peter Dutton, but that is what's going on. They're the blockers, we're the builders.
EPSTEIN: That's a list. Can you tell people what you're doing on gambling, ads? Maybe, can I read you a text? Let's turn the text into a question. ‘Statement for the PM. I am a rusted on Labor man. I am disgusted with the pathetic response to gambling ads. You're disgracing Peta Murphy's hard fought legacy. I absolutely will not vote for you next year.’ What would you say to the person who sent that?
PRIME MINISTER: I'd say we've done more to tackle problem gambling than any government in our two years than in the previous, more than a century. More in just two years, including BetStop, including banning of credit cards, including changing what occurs after ads. And the problem isn't the gambling ads, the problem is gambling. That's the problem. Problem gamblers across the board.
EPSTEIN: But ads encourage the gambling
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there is problem gambling overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly is poker machines. Overwhelmingly. And there are a range of other issues that, problems with gambling, including, of course, lotteries and that form of gambling, including horse racing and all of that -
EPSTEIN: Your critics say you just echo, you're just echoing the AFL and the betting agencies. You are not echoing what Peta Murphy said about those gambling ads and banning them.
PRIME MINISTER: I'm stating facts. Facts. And what we need to do is to make sure that we get the legislation right. We've already, we haven't waited for, as I said. We have done more in two years than all previous governments combined and we’ll continue, we will continue to engage. I continue to meet with people across the spectrum, including, I had a meeting with Tim Costello just last week that was a constructive meeting here in Melbourne. We're working our way through.
EPSTEIN: When do we get a decision on the gambling ads?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, when we announce it.
EPSTEIN: Weeks? Months?
PRIME MINISTER: When we announce it, that's when you get a decision. My Government works through issues in an orderly, consistent way and when we make a decision, we pursue it. But, you know, Peter Dutton hasn't called for an end to all gambling ads and so I'm not quite sure where he's coming from, except his macho stance. He thinks that politics is all about testosterone. Well, it's about getting things right and making the right decision for the right reasons. And we will do that.
EPSTEIN: I wanted to ask you about supermarkets, but just before I do, Peter Dutton was asked a question in Queensland yesterday, I think it was Queensland, by an ABC journalist, essentially a question about Israel and Hezbollah. Sorry, I think it might have been Sydney. But he was pretty tough or short maybe with the ABC journo. If I can just play that grab for everyone listening.
PETER DUTTON: They're a terrorist organisation. They organise terrorist attacks. And if that is not clear to the ABC, then I think the ABC's in greater trouble than even I first imagined.
EPSTEIN: I don't mind what Peter Dutton says about the ABC as an organisation. He's free to do that. Was he too tough on the journo?
PRIME MINISTER: I think Peter Dutton does soft interviews for a bloke who's allegedly the hard man. He does one interview on Sydney talkback every Thursday morning. He's quite happy to speak to Sky after dark. He doesn't do press conferences in Canberra before the National Press Gallery. I doubt whether he's ever sat in the ABC studio here in Melbourne.
EPSTEIN: With my Peter Dutton hat on, he has sat here, not for a while. Are there questions it is not appropriate to ask? He thought that was not an appropriate question.
PRIME MINISTER: I didn't hear the question then. So, I do know that he gets very stroppy when he has to do an interview with someone like Sarah Ferguson or others, anyone who's not bowling full tosses outside leg stump he seems to have a problem with.
EPSTEIN: Supermarkets are the bane of many people's existence. That frustration at the end of the shopping trip. How often do you call the people who run the supermarkets and talk to them? How often do you tell them off?
PRIME MINISTER: We speak with them pretty regularly. And what we're seeing here play out is that day to day unfair prices make life hard, but over a year, the cost really adds up. And I was out in Bayswater yesterday there talking with locals about the impact that it has. You know, your listeners will have noticed when the con, which is what it is, appears at their local supermarket where prices go up by a dollar and then they're reduced by fifty cents. And there's a pretence that there's a special. That's why the ACCC are taking Woolworths and Coles to court. Over 500 breaches between them of unfair practises. That's why we're funding extra money, $30 million additional funding for the ACCC this week to be able to hold these supermarkets to account.
EPSTEIN: Don't they need extra powers? I mean, they might appreciate the money. They need a bigger stick, don't they?
PRIME MINISTER: And we're giving them a big stick. We're changing the voluntary code of conduct to a mandated code, something that was never done by the former Government.
EPSTEIN: What's that going to stop? What do you think that will stop?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what it will do is introduce massive fines and penalties if they breach the code, because there are a range of issues. Another one is shrinkflation, as it's known. So, you have a product that's 500 grams, it's reduced to 400 grams, but the price isn't reduced.
EPSTEIN: Can I ask you about that? Actually, I saw, I think you said you spoke about shrinkflation in Bayswater yesterday. Yes, it's infuriating. It’s one thing to say to me or to the cameras. Do you say that? Like if you ring up the people who run Coles and Woolies, do you say that that is wrong and infuriating?
PRIME MINISTER: You bet I do.
EPSTEIN: What do they say?
PRIME MINISTER: You bet I do. Well, they argue their case, of course. One of the things of why you want a mandated code rather than a voluntary code, and Dr Emerson made these recommendations to us, their job as CEOs is to maximise profits for their shareholders. Now that means that there's a tension between that and looking after their customers, because good practice will mean that customers are happier and are more likely to go to their stores also. But we do have effectively a duopoly in this country. That's why as well we have -
EPSTEIN: But if you raise it and nothing changes, why should I be happy about that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we're doing is pursuing them. And so, for example, we've also funded CHOICE, the consumer organisation, over three years to do surveys and publish them. So, this week they found in their latest publication that Aldi was significantly cheaper for the basket of goods -
EPSTEIN: Most people can't get to an Aldi.
PRIME MINISTER: Than either of the big two, but that's how you put pressure on these big corporations to do the right thing. But if they won't, also what the mandating will do with significant penalties from the ACCC is to add to the pressure, if you like, with a stick. And that's what as well, the ACCC taking Woolworths and Coles, the big two to the court, is about as well.
EPSTEIN: If you read books written by other left wing leaders, Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Kevin Rudd, they won elections. They all say they didn't go hard enough in their first term. Is that going to be a regret that you have?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
EPSTEIN: Not at all?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we've done in our first term, and I spoke in this studio before the election about being in office for more than one term. We've been dealing with global inflation. So, our immediate priority has been how do we put pressure downward pressure on inflation whilst delivering cost of living relief for people -
EPSTEIN: There's no small part of you that regrets not going harder?
PRIME MINISTER: And we've done that. We've introduced cheaper child care, energy bill relief, a tax cut for every taxpayer. The energy bill support, across the board, Fee Free TAFE. In addition to that, we've had our eye on the medium and long term. With the transition to net zero, setting up the National Reconstruction Fund, having legislated targets for the first time on climate change –
EPSTEIN: I'm going to interrupt
PRIME MINISTER: Repairing our relationship with the world has taken time –
EPSTEIN: Is there a problem that you are giving me a list and not telling me a story? Is that a problem?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the story is dealing with the immediate pressures whilst having our eye on where does the future growth come from? How do we take advantage in the transition to net zero? And there's no country I'd rather be than Australia. I think we are well positioned. We haven't gone into recession, unlike the UK, unlike Japan, we haven't seen a significant rise in unemployment, unlike many of western nations, our unemployment rate has remained stable. So, our task as a Labor government has been to deal with those economic pressures while looking after people. And I'm really proud that we have, in difficult circumstances, taken serious action to make sure that people aren't left behind.
EPSTEIN: Thank you for coming in.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks Raf.