PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, joins me now. Prime Minister, welcome back to Breakfast.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good morning. Good to be with you, Patricia.
KARVELAS: How much will bills be reduced by and when will that reduction kick in?
PRIME MINISTER: Treasury analysis suggests that the cap will reduce bills by some $230 as a result of the cap on gas and the cap on coal. In addition to that, there will be relief for Commonwealth recipients of payments. So pensioners, JobSeeker recipients, people who receive Family Tax Benefit through the Social Security system, will all receive further support through a reduction in their bills that will be paid through state governments.
KARVELAS: The gas and coal industry is already up in arms against the deal. There are reports they have a $20 million campaign to campaign against it and they're concerned about what they say is the reasonable price provision. Does that reasonable price provision mean that you will essentially have ongoing regulation of prices?
PRIME MINISTER: No, not at all. This is a temporary measure of $12 per gigajoule that applies for uncontracted gas. So it has no impact on the record prices that they are receiving for the exports. Nor does it apply for any additional new investment in new fields. It applies for just 12 months.
KARVELAS: So can you explain to me the ongoing regulation then of prices? It's in the paper, I've read it myself. Explain to me why you need that provision in it then?
PRIME MINISTER: No, there's a discussion paper, that is not about this immediate issue that we're dealing with. There's been a discussion paper about a code of conduct, that is the subject of consultation, that has a line in it about reasonable price being offered, because it's the ACCC, like the ACCC looks at competition policy and reasonable pricing across the board. This is jumping at shadows. You know, are we going to have a circumstance whereby a business says 'I want to be able to charge an unreasonable price?'
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, this reduction, $250, which you've banked right, that's what you tell us will happen next year, the Greens leader told me earlier that it should be around $750. Why can't it be higher?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what why can't it be $1,000, $2,000, $3,000?
KARVELAS: Good question, why?
PRIME MINISTER: Why not $5,000? You know, what we're dealing with is a reasonable response in the real world that puts downward pressure on the increases, which are a direct result of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. We've come up with measures which are responsible, that won't have a negative impact on investment. Once the rhetoric dies down, which we've heard, I've heard you use the $20 million figure well, that was used in a front page article months ago now. There's constant refrain which is there. The truth is that we've consulted about these measures for a long period of time. We didn't rush into this, we've negotiated with states and territories to achieve an outcome in the interests of the nation but in the interest particularly of consumers, who are doing it tough. It will put downward pressure on, that's what we need to do.
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, the Australian Petroleum Production and Exploration Association has written to you seeking an urgent meeting to prevent what they call a devastating impact on investment. Will you meet with them?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course.
KARVELAS: When?
PRIME MINISTER: I'll meet with them when we meet with them, this week. But we've met with them before. They've met with the Treasurer prior to this agreement being made with the states and territories, they've met with the Energy Minister, they've met with the Resources Minister. We'll continue to meet with them. I spoke with some of the companies involved in APPEA over the weekend. I continually engage with people, and that is a function of the way that my government operates. We're consultative, we work issues through, and this is no different. But we need to act, we need to act before Christmas, you will have heard me say that, as has other Ministers for a period of time now. And during all of that time we've consulted to make sure that we got this right, that we dealt with any potential unintended consequences, that we worked those issues through with Treasury. We also wanted to make sure that solutions didn't put further pressure on inflation, which is why, rather than put cash handouts there, which would have added to inflation, we've taken the advice of Treasury and Finance, and worked out a way that will actually be deflationary by reducing people's power bills next year.
KARVELAS: If you're just tuning in the Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, is my guest here on Radio National Breakfast. Prime Minister, how much compensation will coal producers receive because of the deal?
PRIME MINISTER: If there is a cost of production that is higher than $125 per tonne, then it is reasonable that there be payments made for that to make sure that there isn't a disincentive to continue to supply. So we're working that through with the states and particularly with the New South Wales Government. But we want to make sure that that we get this right, and that is an element of the proposal. If the costs of production aren't higher than that, then, of course, their supply will continue.
KARVELAS: And is that $500 million?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
KARVELAS: What is it?
PRIME MINISTER: No, well that's just a figure made up, frankly.
KARVELAS: It was in the Nine papers. That's what they quoted. So what is it then?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I don't know where they quoted it from, I'll note there was no minister attached to it. Well, these are commercial decisions, Patricia.
KARVELAS: Can you give us a ballpark? If they're wrong, and you're saying their figure's wrong, what is it?
PRIME MINISTER: No, no, I'm not making up figures on your program.
KARVELAS: No but you know the figures, I'm not asking you to make them up. I'm asking what the figure is.
PRIME MINISTER: No, I'm not making them up on your program.
KARVELAS: Fair enough.
PRIME MINISTER: It's not the way that we deal with important policy.
KARVELAS: There is a cost right? The Greens have said they'll fight any moves to compensate producers. That means they won't pass the legislation on Thursday.
PRIME MINISTER: There is nothing in the legislation that does that. Nothing.
KARVELAS: The legislation though does compensate, which you just confirmed.
PRIME MINISTER: No, it doesn't. No, it doesn't.
KARVELAS: If they can't, you explained the mechanism.
PRIME MINISTER: No it doesn't, Patricia.
KARVELAS: So what's your message to the Greens?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there is nothing in the legislation. The message is the same as the direct message that I've given. There is nothing in the legislation to provide any compensation. The legislation is very simple. What it will do is put a price cap on gas temporarily, of $12 a gigajoule for 12 months. It will also reform the AGDSM, the gas trigger, to make sure that supply can occur with boosting resources for the ACCC for monitoring and enforcement. It will also provide for the support for relief on bills for people. That is what the legislation will do. Now, I am very confident that when faced with 'Do you want a price cap on gas,' a majority of the House and the Senate will say yes. And when asked 'Do you want relief for people who are Commonwealth recipients and a $1.5 billion program to reduce people's energy bills,' they'll say yes as well. That's what the legislation does.
KARVELAS: Alright, but I spoke to the Greens Leader Adam Bandt earlier and he made some caveats on potential support. You need him and you need David Pocock to get your legislation through on Thursday because it looks to me like the Coalition is opposing it, unless you had something different. There's a couple of things they're putting on the table, the Greens, they want more support to get people off gas, are you prepared to look at that?
PRIME MINISTER: What we're doing as part of this program is having a capacity investment scheme that was put through all the energy ministers on Thursday. We're also having through our Rewiring the Nation Program, fixing transmission and bringing the grid into the 21st century. We have a medium term plan to secure our energy future, and we know that that's about promoting clean energy. But we have an immediate crisis as a result of the global spike in energy prices that is affecting inflation around the world as a result of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. We need to deal with those immediate issues. You can't bring on additional supply by clicking your fingers, or by wishing for it to happen. It takes time, and during the period of the former government, we saw four gigajoules of energy supply leave the system and only one enter. So we saw a reduction in investment. Now that investment will occur as a result of the programs that we've put in place. But we need to deal with the immediate issues and the immediate legislation that will be before the Parliament on Thursday will put that price cap on gas, and will provide energy bill relief for people.
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, will you negotiate directly with Adam Bandt who's saying that he wants these changes in exchange for the Greens support?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I discuss with everybody. I had a phone hook-up, I've spoken with Adam Bandt, I've spoken with Peter Dutton, I've spoken with a range of the crossbenchers, from Monique Ryan to Zoe Daniel to Rebekha Sharkie to Kylea Tink, I spoke to Bob Katter. I speak to people all the time, Patricia, it's the way that I operate.
KARVELAS: Yeah I know, but the ones that you need the votes of in the Senate to get it through?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I spoke to David Pocock on Friday, I spoke to Adam Bandt on Friday, yesterday again, I'll continue to speak with people.
KARVELAS: I'm just trying to get the sense of how much you're willing to negotiate on this package to get it through?
PRIME MINISTER: Well it's not a complex package, Patricia, it's a very simple package, which is for a cap on gas. Now we know that manufacturers out there are doing it tough. That whereas prices were around about the $10 mark, they've risen in some cases up to $30, $35 was being quoted. This will put a price cap on uncontracted gas of $12 for a period of 12 months, people have to decide, do they support that or not? And then they have to decide, do they want people who are pensioners listening to this program to get energy bill relief next year? That is what they will have to vote for. To be very clear, that is what will be before the Senate. So you've had a whole range of issues out there and there'll be more, you know, $20 million funds and all of these issues will be raised. That's not what is actually happening and what's before the Senate. What we need to do is to act, we need to act immediately because we know that unless we do, our manufacturers who are under such pressure will be doing it even tougher next year. And that is why the Government has put forward those constructive proposals. We'll continue to talk with people. I would be stunned frankly, as well, if the Liberal Party, in spite of their rhetoric, is actually going to vote for higher energy prices.
KARVELAS: What did Peter Dutton tell you? Was he prepared to negotiate with you?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I don't go into, just like I won't go into the discussions with Adam Bandt. I talk with people, I'll continue to engage, the legislation will be finalised in time for people to have a look at it. We're aiming at finalising the legislation, there's some initial material out there, but the actual legislation will go before the Parliament, as a result of the Friday afternoon's decision, will be available well in advance, hopefully by tomorrow afternoon. We'll then engage with people across the Parliament. But I note this, Patricia, not every Premier and Chief Minister is in the Labor Party. They all agreed on Friday with this program, across the political spectrum. Not every energy minister is Labor. They are Labor, Liberal and Green. They all agreed with the package that Chris Bowen took on Thursday, to energy ministers for a Capacity Investment Scheme. When people have a look at the detail, have a think about what we need to do, then they have acted responsibly, the energy ministers on Thursday, and all of the state and territories together with the Federal Government coming up with this agreement on Friday, I'd suggest that that would give pause for thought for those Members and Senators who have to make the decision this Thursday.
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, before I let you go, just on another issue, which is really, really dominating headlines at the moment. On this negotiation over Brittany Higgins' $3 million compensation claim. It's set down for this week. Have you had any briefings on that? And is it correct that the Commonwealth is of a mind to settle?
PRIME MINISTER: Patricia, the idea that I would answer that question is, quite clearly not going to happen, for obvious reasons.
KARVELAS: All right, the idea that I wouldn't ask is also ludicrous, right. Of course I would ask.
PRIME MINISTER: Well that's fine, but it would be entirely inappropriate for me to comment.
KARVELAS: Okay, let me put this to you though. Over the weekend, the Australian's Janet Albrechtson argued it's a conflict of interest that Katy Gallagher signs off on this, given her earlier engagement on the issue. In light of what is being alleged as a political conflict, will the Department insist that that Katy Gallagher recuse herself from any involvement on this?
PRIME MINISTER: I will not be commenting, Patricia.
KARVELAS: Not even on the conflict of issue allegation?
PRIME MINISTER: I am not commenting on these issues.
KARVELAS: On this broader issue that we're seeing, the DPP and the police argue?
PRIME MINISTER: I am not commenting, you're talking about legal matters, which as by the fact that you're asking me questions about it are ongoing, that involve the Commonwealth. I'm the Prime Minister, and it would be inappropriate for me to comment, and I don't intend to.
KARVELAS: Do you think there should be an inquiry though, because it seems to me like in the case that we're seeing in the ACT, there is a massive feud going on. And there is a question mark over whether people can trust the system? Should there be an inquiry to sort this out?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm not going to comment.
KARVELAS: Okay, I tried. I tried, Prime Minister. I gave it a red hot go.
PRIME MINISTER: You did try. Points for effort, Patricia. But I think that anyone listening from the Attorney-General's Department would be very pleased with my comprehensive answers.
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, before I let you go, you've got COVID. When are you going to leave Kirribilli, or have you already, are you able to leave iso?
PRIME MINISTER: Well I can, it's been a week. So I have been extra cautious, but I'm able to to leave, but I am going to take it a little bit easy over the next couple of days. I'll be travelling to Canberra on Wednesday.
KARVELAS: Okay, Prime Minister, I hope you have an excellent Christmas and summer break and I will speak to you in the new year. Thank you.
PRIME MINISTER: And you Patricia, and enjoy Bindi over the break.
KARVELAS: Yeah, she's been barking a lot, actually. But I'll talk to you about that another time. Thank you, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: Thank you.