PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, is my guest. Prime Minister, pretty exciting to have you in the studio.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, it's good to be here.
KARVELAS: I love a face to face interview. You've made my day. If your tax cuts start in 15 months, what's the wild rush? The Crossbench says we can't even scrutinise this. It's far too fast.
PRIME MINISTER: It's very clear. It's building on the tax cuts that we passed last year. We want to provide certainty going forward. That's why we believe, we clearly have had a majority in the House of Representatives, we'll put it through the Senate so that people can be certain. What this does is provide over $2,500 to average taxpayers. Importantly, we've designed it to help people who most need help. People under $45,000 were not going to get a cent. They now will know that they get three lots of tax cuts going through. These will apply, of course, during the coming term as well. You'd remember, unlike, this isn't something like the former Government that had three stages that went right across multiple terms of Parliament. This is sensible reform and it's also in the context of the other measures we have. The Energy Bill Relief, the Cheaper Medicines, the Cheaper Child Care, the tax cuts for every Australian, but also wages increasing as well so that people are able to earn more and keep more of what they earn.
KARVELAS: Okay, 10 deficits in a row are forecast and debt is almost at a trillion dollars. Do you think the current level of government spending is sustainable?
PRIME MINISTER: When we came to office, Patricia, you'll recall that there were deficits forecast until 2061. What we did was hard work to turn the $78 billion deficit into a $22 billion surplus. Followed that up with another $15 billion surplus. And the deficit that we announced last night is almost half of what was anticipated less than three years ago. So, we've done hard work to deliver savings, more than $95 billion of savings, during this term of government. We have reduced debt by almost $180 billion. And the bottom line on our watch is $207 billion better than what was predicted under the former Government.
KARVELAS: Accepting your argument about it being better than what it would have been. Do you have a plan to make it even better than that? Because we are relying on borrowed money over the next 10 years.
PRIME MINISTER: We work each and every day, Patricia, to make a difference. We've handed down four budgets during this term, the first time that's happened since the 1940s. But we have shown responsible economic management. Our cost of living relief has put that downward pressure on inflation as well. And getting inflation down without having a spike in unemployment and while dealing with cost of living relief is like landing a 747 on a helicopter pad. But we've managed to do that. We are turning the corner. And today's inflation figures again showed a further decrease in the inflation rate.
KARVELAS: That's certainly welcome. So, do you expect the RBA to cut rates next week?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the RBA is an independent body, and you know the drill there, Patricia.
KARVELAS: I know the drill, so let's not waste people's time. But the idea that people would need more relief. Do you think there's a case that people do need more relief?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't think the RBA need my advice. The RBA will make their decision independently. What my Government is responsible for is making sure that we act responsibly. We've done that. Inflation had a 6 in front and was rising. It peaked at 7.8 per cent. It now is at 2.4 per cent. It is in the lower half of the RBA band that they wanted to see, between two and three. And that has been due to the hard work that Australians have done.
KARVELAS: But there is a lot of extra spending, though, and absolutely some people will be very happy about some of that extra spending. So, I don't want to argue about the different points of the spending, but you do have to be able to afford it. We have a structural deficit. So, do we need more reform to change that? What's coming in and out?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we, of course, are a reforming Government, but have a look at where the expenditure is. Medicare Urgent Care Clinics, another 50. What they do is take pressure off emergency departments. So, yes, there is an expenditure, but it reduces the bills in hospitals. It costs a lot more to have someone sitting in an emergency department than it does to get their arm fixed if it's broken or to get stitches in an Urgent Care Clinic. And one third of the people who've been through Urgent Care Clinics and more than 1.2 million people have, have been under the age of 15. The people's kids falling off a skateboard or a bike, they get fixed straight away. All they need is their Medicare card. So, that's an important investment. Similarly, our education investment. What could be more important than delivering on the Gonski reforms? We've both been around a little while. It's talked about for 15 years –
KARVELAS: You longer, but yes, it's been a long time.
PRIME MINISTER: We have delivered it. First talked about 15 years ago, identified, what's the school resourcing standard to give every young Australian opportunity? What that does, it feeds into productivity, workforce participation, skills, growth fo the future –
KARVELAS: A lot of it will deliver absolutely positive results. I don't think there's much contesting some of that, but you need a tax base that can pay for it. You're not looking at the tax base.
PRIME MINISTER: If you're a smarter country, if you're giving people the skills that enables them to have a better opportunity in life for themselves, but importantly as well, make a stronger contribution to the economy. Free TAFE – 600,000 Australians have been through. What that means is more carpenters, more electricians, but also more nurses, more carers in aged care, disability care, child care. It boosts economic participation as well. And that is what we have designed. Everything that comes before my Cabinet and our Expenditure Review Committee process, we go through – it’s not like a tick and flick, we go through – is this contributing to the economy? Will this make a difference?
KARVELAS: Okay. There are other ideas that have been circulated for a long time and some of them are gathering quite a lot of popularity. Something like negative gearing. Now, obviously, there's ways you can do that which is less contentious. Is it worth having conversations like that with the public about a broader way of changing the way we tax?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the key to housing is of course housing supply.
KARVELAS. So, you don't – I just want to cut back to it. You don't think it's worth looking at?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it has been looked at and it was voted on by the Australian people.
KARVELAS: Yeah, it was a while ago.
PRIME MINISTER: Not that long ago.
KARVELAS: 2019. The world has changed dramatically.
PRIME MINISTER: Not that long ago. Not that long ago. And people were clear about their opposition to the changes at that time.
KARVELAS: At that time.
PRIME MINISTER: Now, what we have done, what we have done is concentrate on supply. Because everyone says – anyone who looks at the housing affordability issue – sees the key is increasing supply. So, we have our Housing Australia Future Fund, increased public and social housing. We have Build to Rent scheme, increased private rentals and we have our Help to Buy scheme, increased home ownership. So, across the board, this is a comprehensive plan. $33 billion.
KARVELAS: Peter Dutton says that he wants to return the dream of home ownership to Australians. Do you want to return the dream of home ownership to Australians?
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely, I do. And that's why we have our Help to Buy scheme. That's why we reformed it immediately –
KARVELAS: It looks like the dream's far off, though.
PRIME MINISTER: It's tough, there's no question about that. But that's why we need to increase supply. That's why our Help to Buy scheme is a really innovative way that we know is effective. It works in Western Australia, it works in New Zealand, it's worked in other countries as well. And that is the idea of shared equity, shared ownership, in order to get people into the market so that they don't need a big deposit, and so that when they're in a stronger position down the track, they can buy back the government's share, or at the end of the process, the government gets its share back. So, governments have actually made money out of this scheme, as well as benefiting people into home ownership.
KARVELAS: I want to talk about a couple of other issues. You've been trying to get Donald Trump on the phone. Are you getting any closer?
PRIME MINISTER: Look, we're working with the US Administration. It's not something where you're texting each other: “how about a chat?” What we're doing is –
KARVELAS. So, you're not on Signal, for instance? I hear that's a hot place to be in the US?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we are doing is engaging through officials and through the representations that we're making strongly, putting Australia's case to –
KARVELAS: Do you expect to speak to Donald Trump before the election?
PRIME MINISTER: The important fact is what I'm looking for is an outcome. And what happens between leaders is that when things are sorted out by officials, then leaders have discussions.
KARVELAS: Right, how about the other way around, talking to work it out?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, that's not the way that international diplomacy works, Patricia.
KARVELAS: I definitely don't talk to world leaders, apart from you. You are a world leader. So, if you are re-elected, will your first trip be to Washington to build a relationship with Donald Trump?
PRIME MINISTER: Look, I have discussed with the President going to the United States, and I expect that certainly will be very early on in the term.
KARVELAS: Ok, so that will be one of your first international trips?
PRIME MINISTER: Sure, absolutely. And I've also invited the President to Australia.
KARVELAS: Right. You want him to come to Australia?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course.
KARVELAS: When?
PRIME MINISTER: That's a matter for him. He didn't come during his first term as President, but American presidents will always be welcome here, as are other international visitors.
KARVELAS: It would be rather contentious, though. Do you accept that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we will be likely to host the Quad meeting next year and that will see the Quad leaders – United States, Japan and India – visit Australia.
KARVELAS: Ok. I'm sure you've seen the story. I'd made a little joke about it but it may have gone over people's heads because it was very. It was a bad joke but the.
PRIME MINISTER: Self-declared before I know what the joke is.
KARVELAS: I think it's important to just own it. But Signal and defence secrets being shared with a journalist, that's rather disturbing. I'm sure you've seen the story. It was huge yesterday. Does that worry you? Given we're a Five Eyes member that we share information, they get information and that that's how loose they are with this sort of –
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it obviously isn't desirable and I'm sure they regard that the same.
KARVELAS: They're a bit loose though with information, aren't they?
PRIME MINISTER: Mistakes happen from time to time. The important thing is when something like that happens, that you identify how it happened and put in place measures to make sure it doesn't happen again. The US takes security seriously and I'm sure they will respond appropriately.
KARVELAS: The instant asset write off.
PRIME MINISTER: Yep.
KARVELAS: The – lots of people are talking about it. It was a big issue of course in Question Time. Are you on the cusp of a deal with the Senate?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
KARVELAS: Tell me more.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we're on a –
KARVELAS: Who. Who are you talking to?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, we're talking to the usual, usual people –
KARVELAS: Who’s been most open to trying to get the case it goes through?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh look, Katy Gallagher looks after those Senate arrangements. What had happened was that amendments were carried to the legislation. There wasn't a majority for the instant asset write off as it stands to just continue. That's what we wanted to see. We've been waiting for month after month after month. One of the issues that happens in the Senate is that they often have held up our legislation for a long time. If they agree to pass it then they'll get to do that tonight. My understanding is that that is looking very positive.
KARVELAS: Ok, so you think you can get it through tonight?
PRIME MINISTER: That is looking very positive. I know what way we're voting, but we have 25 votes out of 76, Patricia. So, we always need other people to vote for our legislation and we're hoping that that happens along with a whole range of other legislation, including most importantly, of course, the tax cuts that Peter Dutton and the Coalition voted against today. Having argued against the tax cuts that we put in place last year, said there shall be an election on the basis of it a year ago and it seems that Peter Dutton and the Coalition want to cut everything. Health, education. The only thing they don't want to cut is your taxes.
KARVELAS: How about if they cut taxes more than you have? Then you can't say that. Right?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they've said that the economy can't support tax cuts. They've been out there very clearly saying that. They have argued against our tax cuts. They're fine to have people on my income and perhaps your income getting a tax cut, but it seems to me that they didn't want the 3 million Australians who are in that band of under $45,000 to get a tax cut last year at all. They would have missed out completely, and they'll miss out completely if the Coalition gets its way.
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, just a couple of really quick ones. I know you have to go, you're a Prime Minister, but just on things that I personally have been watching for a long time, one of them being the Makarrata Commission. $5.8 million was given to establish it. I went through the papers, I couldn't see a reference. Is that still budgeted for?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, look, what we're doing is working through the issues of Closing the Gap in a practical way.
KARVELAS. So, have you redirected the money to the Closing the Gap stuff?
PRIME MINISTER: We're working through a range of Indigenous issues, including Indigenous housing. We have such a significant investment in remote housing.
KARVELAS: I'm just going to ask politely and clearly, have you redirected the money to other stuff?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we are doing is making sure that we prioritise economic advancement and economic empowerment, and we've made that very clear.
KARVELAS: Ok. So, no – Makarrata Commission won't happen next term? Not going to happen?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we've made it very clear that our priority is economic empowerment.
KARVELAS: Fair enough. Just on something that I – It's my own state, I'm in Canberra. But Infrastructure Australia says the first stage of the Suburban Rail Loop isn't viable, so should there be no public money from the Commonwealth that goes to it?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you're verbling them there. You're verbling them. They have indeed approved the granting of the $2.2 billion that we committed to the Suburban Rail Loop. That has been forwarded to Victoria for all the early works to continue. We have additional investment we've allocated in this Budget to Victorian infrastructure, including now the $7 billion that we have for the airport rail link, as well as a range of road projects and rail projects.
KARVELAS: Ok, final question. Today the Treasurer was asked, I thought, a great question from one of my colleagues about dental on Medicare, and he said he had an open mind. Obviously, you have to pay for it. But you're running for Prime Minister again. I know you haven't put this out as a policy, but would that be a legacy thing for you? I mean, you are someone who grew up, as we know – we know your story – very poor. So, you understand –
PRIME MINISTER: I went to the dental hospital there at Central Railway –
KARVELAS. So, did I. And those of us who went to the dental hospital know what that was like.
PRIME MINISTER: Sure.
KARVELAS. So, would that be a passion for you? I know you can't promise it, Prime Minister, because you haven't gone through the process But I just want to get a vibe for you –
PRIME MINISTER: I've got a big agenda.
KARVELAS: Is that something you'd be passionate about?
PRIME MINISTER: And I'll tell you what my vibe is. I don't determine new policies on Afternoon Briefing, as much as –
KARVELAS: Wouldn't it be good?
PRIME MINISTER: As much as – Well, it would be good for your program.
KARVELAS: Fantastic For my program.
PRIME MINISTER: What we do, what we're doing in terms of health, whether you look at the tripping of the bulk billing incentive. The Medicare, Urgent Care Clinics. The biggest women's health package that Australia has ever seen. A comprehensive plan, including Cheaper Medicines. I think we're doing a fair bit in the health space. And it stands in stark contrast to my opponent, who of course ripped the guts out of Medicare, took $50 billion from hospitals, tried to introduce a GP tax, tried to introduce a payment you would have had to have made every time you enter an emergency department, and introduced legislation not to decrease the cost of medicines, but to increase the cost of medicines. Which is why he can't be taken seriously when he says he won't cut. Because if you've got to pay $600 billion for nuclear reactors, the cuts have to come from somewhere. And in his own words, if you want to see what someone will do, look at past performance. He ripped the guts out of Medicare last time. This is what he will do again if he has the opportunity.
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, I'm glad we bonded over the dental hospital. A few other things, too. It's been a good interview. Thank you.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Patricia.