DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Prime Minister, welcome to the program.
PRIME MINISTER: Good to be with you.
SPEERS. So, are these environment laws gone for good or does it remain your intention to implement them?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's our intention to proceed with them, but we'll proceed with them on the basis of our values that we put forward. These laws could have been carried at any time over recent months if the Parliament had the numbers to vote for them.
SPEERS: But clearly Roger Cook and the mining industry have a problem with the laws as they stand. You're saying you're going there later this week. You're saying you stand by them, you'll implement them either if Parliament comes back or take them to the election?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm saying what we want to do is to ensure that there is proper protection of the environment, of sustainability, but also speedier approvals for things that should be approved. We want jobs to be created, we want industry to be supported, and that's why we need to get the balance right. Now this week we passed some 45 pieces of legislation. There were a number of things which we didn't: superannuation for those with balances above $3 million, the electoral law reform, this nature positive laws, veterans' affairs. I said at the beginning of the week, I made it really clear, as I have for some period of time, David, that we wanted to get legislation passed, but it would be on the basis of our values. And we held the line on areas like housing. And they changed their mind, the Greens political party, and they went through unamended. We will hold to our values. We won't allow any tail to wag the dog. We want to make sure that it happens –
SPEERS: On these environment laws. Clearly, a deal was either close or, according to the Greens, was done. They reckon you'd agree to.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, of course they'd say that. No, we hadn't. And they don't say that, David. There is no one in the Greens that says that I agreed to it because it wasn't. We were negotiating across the Parliament with the Coalition, all the crossbenchers, a range of measures, things that we didn't have agreement on were put aside. That was one of them.
SPEERS: Ok. There is a draft agreement, though, a letter to you that says draft agreement on the top and spells out what that –
PRIME MINISTER: No, there's not David.
SPEERS: Well, I've seen it.
PRIME MINISTER: A draft letter from who?
SPEERS: A draft agreement from Tanya Plibersek to the Greens laying out the amendments.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there's no draft agreement to me. And what we did was make sure –
SPEERS: You're saying that letter doesn't exist?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, no letter to me exists. I was negotiating across the Parliament and that's how you have to do it. You can't have 45 sets of negotiations.
SPEERS: But a letter from the Minister to the Greens that you're saying you weren't aware of that.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that wasn't a letter from me. What we did was go through and where there wasn't agreement, they were set aside and we progressed 45 different pieces of legislation. We were disappointed that we didn't get legislation through on superannuation.
SPEERS: But sticking with this one, just to be clear, you're saying you weren't aware that the Minister had written a draft agreement letter to the Greens laying out.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we were negotiating through a series of legislation. 45 pieces of legislation went through. Not everything did. But what we assured, what we were certain about was that we wouldn't make major changes. We wanted to stick to our values. We did that successfully. At the beginning of the week, David, no one was saying that we would pass 45 pieces of legislation.
SPEERS: And I'll come to some of those. But I just want to be clear here, because this agreement, or draft agreement, did lay out where the Minister would have some power to protect native forests from logging. The Greens were of the view that you had agreed to this, but then hours later.
PRIME MINISTER: No, they weren't, David. I don't accept that.
SPEERS: That's what they told me.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I don't accept that because I was there and we know things that were put aside and in the agreements that were done between myself as the Prime Minister and the minor parties across the board, we agreed on most things, but on some things we didn't.
SPEERS: When you told them there was no deal on this, it was you, Adam Bandt, Sarah Hanson-Young –
PRIME MINISTER: And Katy Gallagher.
SPEERS: Ok, but not Tanya Plibersek, the Minister. Why not?
PRIME MINISTER: Because we had 45 pieces of legislation, David, 45 across the economy, veterans affairs, social policy, housing policy. That's what has to happen.
SPEERS. So, why is Sarah Hanson-Young there? Wasn't it, you say general meeting about all sorts of things.
PRIME MINISTER: Because she's the Senate leader for the Greens and Katy Gallagher is the Manager of Government Business.
SPEERS: Shouldn’t you have told your Minister, Tanya Plibersek, this was not going to happen before you told the Greens?
PRIME MINISTER: We did. We did.
SPEERS: You told Tanya Plibersek before telling the Greens it was no deal?
PRIME MINISTER: We informed, all of our Ministers were informed the whole way through about how –
SPEERS: What does that mean, did you speak with her directly?
PRIME MINISTER: I spoke to her directly –
SPEERS: And said there's not a deal with the Greens?
PRIME MINISTER: That we're not getting an agreement on that. And as I spoke to all of our Ministers, this would have taken, David, in hours of discussions, this would have taken up 10 to 15 minutes total.
SPEERS: Because there is, I've had some of your caucus colleagues express to me a view that Tanya Plibersek was unnecessarily treated badly by not being informed. You're saying she was informed, that they're wrong?
PRIME MINISTER: All Ministers were informed, David, the whole way through. And when you're negotiating across the whole Parliament, look, we began, we began the year with tax cuts for every single Australian taxpayer. We ended the year with a whole lot of cost of living relief and reform, whether it was support for renters, the childcare wages increases, the legislation across 11 different Treasury bills. So, we passed legislation dealing with immediate challenges, but also in the rough seas that we've managed to navigate, we've always had our eyes on the horizon. So, that long term agenda as well, Future Made in Australia, Build to Rent scheme.
SPEERS: Let's talk about some of the things you did get through – social media. You passed this world first ban on kids using social media. How will this work, Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we have 12 months, but what we will do is we've outlined in the legislation one of the things the legislation makes clear as well, that because technology changes really quickly, we've made sure that legislation doesn't have to be adjusted every time there's a shift in technology. So, there are some powers with the Minister, but it's clear as well that the obligation will be on social media companies to do everything they can to make sure that those people under 16 don't have access to social media.
SPEERS: Will any of us have to hand over ID to use social media?
PRIME MINISTER: We make it very clear those processes in detail will be worked through over the next 12 months. But it made clear as well that it's not about providing ID. We know that social media companies have more information about you and I than some of our friends do. And we know that they're able to do that. The obligations will be on them. And importantly, David, we need to take a bit of a step back. What is this about? I've met parents who've had to bury their children as a result of the impact that social media has had as a result of bullying. And we need to do something about it now. This is world leading legislation, but I assure you the whole world is watching. This was front page of the New York Times yesterday.
SPEERS: Elon Musk is watching as well and he called it a backdoor way to control access to the Internet by all Australians. Are you prepared to talk to him about what you're doing here?
PRIME MINISTER: We'll talk to anyone, David, but with regard to Elon Musk, he has an agenda, he's entitled to push that. As the owner of X, formerly known as Twitter –
SPEERS: He's also Donald Trump's right hand man.
PRIME MINISTER: Now, we'll engage, talk to him. I'll talk to anyone, David, but we are determined to get this done. The Parliament has overwhelmingly passed this legislation and it's the right thing to do. I want children to have a childhood. I want them to engage with each other. And when mobile phones were banned in schools, there was criticism of that as well. But guess what, children's education standards are being lifted. They're engaging with each other, they're playing with each other and engaging in a human to human level. So, that's what we want to happen.
SPEERS: This social media ban was done relatively quickly, on gambling ads, though you've had this parliamentary report and unanimous recommendations for more than 18 months now and we still haven't seen any legislation, any response from the Government.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's not right, David.
SPEERS: What is the Government's response?
PRIME MINISTER: That's not right, David. We've actually implemented a range of measures. We've banned credit cards for gambling. We've changed the statements at the end of ads from something that was pretty benign into something that is very serious.
SPEERS: On the recommendation to actually phase out gambling ads.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that wasn't, that was one element of a whole range of legislation.
SPEERS: What's your response?
PRIME MINISTER: And I'm going through what we have done, including introducing BetStop. We've done a range of measures.
SPEERS: I'm asking what you can do about their recommendation, phase that out.
PRIME MINISTER: We're continuing to consult. This is a complex area. We want to make sure that there aren't any unintended consequences. But this week, David, you can hardly say this is a Government that has sat back –
SPEERS: But when you did something on this –
PRIME MINISTER: And hasn’t advanced our agenda. Well, the question of getting something through the Parliament is another one, David. What we saw this week is that we've had, we've been confronted by an Opposition all year which has chosen to oppose everything just about. And this week they actually voted against the doxxing laws. They voted against anti money laundering provisions where people are paying cash from activities unknown, to the tune of some of them in the millions of dollars for real estate, for example. And the Opposition voted against that.
SPEERS: You're saying they're turning a blind eye to money laundering by not backing that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they need to explain why it is that they voted against anti money laundering legislation in the Parliament, in the House of Representatives and in the Senate this week. And even when it came back on Friday morning, they still voted against it. It's beyond my comprehension why they could do that, but they have had an attitude, David, of just voting against everything. And before this week as well, we had the crossbenchers also being reluctant to pass legislation. Ok, now, we had a big breakthrough. You did this week, and it's one which exceeded all expectations, including on this show last week. And so the Government has been determined to present our arguments to make our case. And we've been very successful this week.
SPEERS: Yep. The Coalition did back you on immigration laws. There are three bills in particular that they've backed here. You'll have the power to deport those members of the NZYQ cohort, the former immigration detainees, some of whom have serious criminal convictions. Where will you now send them?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we won't do is make those announcements on Insiders on a Sunday morning. David, what this does is give the Government power to engage with third countries to make sure that we protect Australia's national interest.
SPEERS: Will you use that new power now?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we will see. David, we understand that we got confronted by a decision by the High Court, not of our making and not what we wanted. The Government has responded to make sure that, our only priority here is making sure that we keep Australians safe.
SPEERS: It's not going to pass a law and then not use it.
PRIME MINISTER: And we will do what we need to do to keep Australians safe, and that has been our priority.
SPEERS: You've also passed a law to ban mobile phones in detention centres, something Labor used to oppose. Why do you need to stop people in detention being able to freely communicate?
PRIME MINISTER: Because what we want to make sure is that we look after Australia's national interests in keeping people safe, and we have done that, David. Before the last election, there was some questioning of our resolve. What we've been determined to do is to show our strong commitment to keep Australians safe. We have kept Operation Sovereign Borders fully in place. No one who has arrived here by boat has been allowed to settle here. We've done what's necessary, but at the same time, our big focus, David, has been on cost of living pressures which are there and we've navigated them. We understand that people, when I ask you about cost of living, we understand that people are doing it tough just on that.
SPEERS: And clearly there are measures that you've passed this past week that will help on the cost of living front. But I want to show you this. Some OECD data on householders disposable income. It goes back to pre-covid. So, you can see that the rise there. But why has in Australia household disposable income continued to go down over the last couple of years?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we understand that people are doing it tough. Global inflation has had an impact. Now inflation peaked higher and earlier overseas than it did here. But our focus has been on providing cost of living support.
SPEERS: Sorry to interrupt, but the, I mean, take a look at this. You talk about the global factor. Other countries, Canada, the OECD average, they're doing better than Australia with disposable income. Why? Why is that?
PRIME MINISTER: Because, David, if you look at the middle of the graph, it tells you the story. Inflation peaked higher and earlier overseas than it did here. Interest rates were higher overseas, inflation was higher and it was earlier. The impact because of where we are in the supply chain occurred later here and hence why inflation though that we inherited with a six in front of it when we came to office and rising now has a two in front of it and is falling. Real wages are increasing, particularly in areas like childcare and aged care, where we're provided for special increases. We have a rise as well in business investment. We have more small businesses than we've ever had before in Australia.
SPEERS: When is that going to pick up? When are our living standards going to pick up?
PRIME MINISTER: And as well we have produced tax cuts for every single Australian taxpayer. Now all of those measures, David, have been opposed by Peter Dutton. People would have been worse off under Peter Dutton if he had his way because we would have had none of that cost of living relief. And what we're doing now, David, is outlining what a second term agenda will be and that Australians will be better off if Labor is able to continue to build on the foundations that we have laid during this first term.
SPEERS: Have you even decided yet when the election will be?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I'll decide, I've said very clearly. I know that this is an interest of the media. There was going to be an election in August. September, October, November. I've said the whole way along that three years is too short. I think there should be four year fixed terms. That hasn't been able to be achieved. Twice that's been tried in referendums and not succeeded. But my starting point is to work from three years and to work back from that.
SPEERS: From May?
PRIME MINISTER: And work back from that.
SPEERS: You need a reason to go before then?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we will make a decision when we make a decision –
SPEERS: Parliament will come back in February?
PRIME MINISTER: In partnership. That's certainly our intention and I foreshadowed the whole way through David, I have spoken about 2025 as being the election year.
SPEERS: So we've got a bit of time.
PRIME MINISTER: That clearly is when it is going to be, in spite of the rather bizarre suggestion from Peter Dutton, who has called for an election twice. He called for an election this week to happen in New Year's week and he called for an election because he was so opposed to our tax cuts for every single Australian state.
SPEERS: I recall that. Look mentioned earlier, Justin Trudeau's paid a visit to Donald Trump at Mar a Lago. You're not planning any sort of drop in over the summer?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Justin Trudeau has a specific issue that he's raising with the incoming President, which is the statements about a 25% tariff on Canadian and Mexican goods.
SPEERS. So, no reason for you to go there.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'm doing the job that I was elected to do.
SPEERS: Ok.
PRIME MINISTER: I've had a very constructive discussion with President Trump and it was very positive.
SPEERS: And look, just on his Cabinet picks, I wanted to ask you about Tulsi Gabbard, who he's picked as Director of Intelligence Services there. Director of National Intelligence. There are concerns, I've been reading amongst Five Eyes partners as well, about her record. She's defended some of Russia's reasons for invading Ukraine, criticised Ukraine's President, Russian state media applauded her appointment. Are you comfortable, would you trust sharing Australia's secrets with Tulsi Gabbard?
PRIME MINISTER: The relationship between Australia and the United States is a strong one. It's never been stronger than it is right now. And as Five Eyes partners, we cooperate through our intelligence agencies and I'm sure that we'll continue to do so in the future.
SPEERS: Prime Minister, thanks for joining us throughout the year and we look forward to talking more in the lead up to the election, whenever that happens to be.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, David. And keep your eye on the white car with the flag on the front. At some time between now and May, it will go to Government House, but there won't be an election on New Year's Day or New Year's week on the 3rd of January. I can confirm that.
SPEERS: Good to hear, Prime Minister. Thank you.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, David.