GARY ADSHEAD, HOST: All right now, then without further ado, let's get down to it. It's the campaign of course, we're all watching with interest as the federal politicians go out there and make us promises that they don't want us to refuse. But of course, there's lots of debates that go on when these election promises come up, but there's also side issues. The government of the day still has to deal with things, and of course, the Coalition have to continue to hold them to account. So let's get into some of the issues. In the studio with me, I have Senator Dean Smith, of course, WA Liberal Senator, thanks very much for coming in, Dean.
DEAN SMITH, LIBERAL SENATOR FOR WA: Good to be here, Gary and Happy New Year to you and ABC listeners. And of course, to Patrick as well.
ADSHEAD: Patrick's there, he's listening right now. Patrick Gorman is the Member for Perth and of course, the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister. How are you going, Patrick?
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: I am very well Gary, and I will also say, Happy New Year to you. Happy New Year to Dean. Happy New Year to all of your listeners, most of whom will be voting a couple of times in the next few months.
ADSHEAD: Okay, I'll start with that. I was going to start with Trump, but given that you've just said that, Patrick, and 1300 222 720 - people can feel free to call through and have their say or ask you a question. Does it make it really hard in terms of the state election and a federal election, I don't know the date. Dean Smith, you might not know the date. Patrick Gorman, you might know the date. I'll say April 12. And so we know that that's like, within a month we've got two elections, the state and the federal. Does that make it difficult for you? First up, Patrick Gorman, to prosecute your messages.
GORMAN: Not at all. I think Western Australians love having their voice heard, and they love having their voice heard on the national stage. So a federal election is the best way to do that. What we will do is what we do every federal election, which is put forward our plans, put forward our plan to build Australia's future. And also point out some of the real problems with what would happen for Western Australia if Peter Dutton was to get the reins of power, including the massive blow that he would hit to the WA budget with his really aggressive cuts.
ADSHEAD: Okay, alright. Well, Dean Smith, your response to that? And first up. I mean, does it? Is it better or worse for you that you're going to have a State election which, let's face it, you know, I'll call it, I'll say Labor get returned, maybe with a less of a majority, but Labor get returned here. Does that make it a problem for you?
SMITH: Well, Gary, I'm in your corner. I'm picking the 12th of April as well. I'm not, I'm not a betting man. Perhaps by the end of the program, Patrick might be able to sort of let us know whether we are hot or cold on the 12th of April as an election date. As we know, voting and elections are very, very important. They go to the heart of our democratic tradition in Australia. It's a really important and timely opportunity for West Australians to make a judgment. Do they think that Anthony Albanese is taking our country in the right direction. Or is he taking ourselves in the wrong direction. This is clearly going to be a cost of living election. I think that many Australians feel worse off under Labor, and that's a very, very important point, because Anthony Albanese, in Perth, in May, two and a half years ago, said to people that they would be better off under Labor, and we know that that is certainly not true. And then the developments over the last few months, with the rise of antisemitism, the threat that that poses to not just the Jewish community, but the broader community in terms of social cohesion. I think that Australians are feeling worse off and less secure.
ADSHEAD: Patrick Gorman, on that, on the antisemitism, obviously, there was a National Cabinet meeting, where decisions were made around databases and so on. But you would have a lot of Jewish people and members of the community in your electorate. Are you worried that the PM didn't jump quick enough? I mean, we saw the example of when the synagogue got firebombed. You know, he was in Western Australia, and there was a lot of criticism around that. Do you think, Patrick, that more should have been done faster?
GORMAN: I visited a synagogue in Perth with the Prime Minister while he was there, while he was in Perth on that visit. This government has provided some $57 million to improve safety and security at Jewish schools and synagogues. Because what we know is that there is no place anywhere in Australia for antisemitism. It is a disgusting hatred that needs to be called out and stamped out. And I want to pay a particular thanks to police officers who are working around the clock, around the country at the moment, with both Operation Avalite, which is the special operation that the federal government has set up. Plus the work that the WA Police are doing, New South Wales Police, Victorian Police, to make sure that people who are spreading this hatred, putting fear into communities, are brought to justice. That's what I want to see, because it sends the strongest possible message to those who are trying to put fear into people for just being who they are. It is disgusting. And there's no place -
ADSHEAD: Should it have gone to that point where you had a daycare centre getting firebombed before you see a National Cabinet response? Dean Smith, I mean, obviously that's something that's happened, and I think that the Jewish community are welcoming of it. But really, should it have gone this long?
SMITH: Gary, I think that's a very fair question to have asked Patrick Gorman, and I ask, and I hope that you ask Anthony Albanese that next time he's in Perth, if he comes on to your show. Because this is more than just about throwing money at issues. This is about national leadership on a very significant and important issue. Fourteen months ago, Peter Dutton wrote to Anthony Albanese, suggesting there be a National Cabinet meeting. Fourteen months ago, and in that period, we have seen a significant rise in antisemitic activity in our country. Australians are keen to understand where is the national leadership on this issue, from Anthony Albanese and the government, first point. Second point, if I might Gary, what is the plan? What is the plan? Because if it took 14 months to get the first National Cabinet meeting, how long will it take to get real reform and real change? And the database idea, I've got to say, and I think this is the reaction of many people, is a very shallow initiative. Databases, analysts, of analytical work on antisemitic activities have been undertaken already by many organisations, most notably the Executive Council of Australian Jewry. So this goes to the heart of national leadership. And I think many Australians would agree, whatever their political bias or prejudice, would agree that this situation is now out of control.
ADSHEAD: Patrick, it plays to the Coalition's line that sometimes the Prime Minister doesn't seem to be decisive and fast enough.
GORMAN: I'll tell you what was decisive, Gary. We made the decision to legislate against hate symbols and the Nazi salute. That wasn't something that happened when Dean Smith and the Coalition were last in power, that was something that Labor legislated. It's now the law of the land. We took action to criminalise doxxing, something that, again, hadn't happened in nine years under the Coalition. Indeed, the Coalition, it will surprise some of your listeners who will learn that, the Coalition voted against that legislation at the end of last year, and we brought in legislation against hate crimes. Again, something that didn't happen when Mr. Dutton was Home Affairs Minister, but we got it done. I agree that action is important, but I also agree that facts are important. If you look at the facts of what this government has done, record funding when it comes to that $57 million to improve safety and security at Jewish schools and synagogues. The work we've done when it comes to hate crimes, doxxing, hate symbols. This is a government that gets things done. Doesn't just want to talk. We want to act.
ADSHEAD: Alright. 1300 222 720. You're listening to ABC 720 in the Drive program with Gary Adshead. I've got Dean Smith, the senator in the studio with me. Patrick Gorman, the Member for Perth, and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister. 1300 222 720, if you'd like to join the conversation, feel free to way in. It's going to come down to it, isn't it? This election, from what I can see, and tell me if I'm wrong, both of you, but from what I can see, it is real personality and identity politics. I mean, clearly Peter Dutton is very good at picking on issues that might get the sort of reaction from, I'll call it a base, that he's looking for when we talk about the Aboriginal flag and not standing in front of it at Prime Ministerial press conferences and so on. It's going to come down to Peter Dutton describing Anthony Albanese as weak, and Anthony Albanese describing Peter Dutton as nasty. Do the people of Australia deserve better?
SMITH: Gary, if I might, I actually think that Australians are looking beyond that in this particular election contest. I think they are absolutely looking beyond that. And I say that for three reasons. The first reason is I think the Australians do look deeply and think carefully about the election choices they make. I think that's really powerfully demonstrated by the fact that in federal elections, outcomes tend to be closer, and in state elections, outcomes tend to be more significant in terms of seats that change. I think also that the challenges that are facing this country, and this is not a rhetorical statement. This is demonstrated by the facts and the evidence. The cost of living crisis and the cost of doing business crisis is real for many, many families and for many, many businesses. The data makes that very, very clear. Now we'll have different solutions in terms of how we should manage that as an alternative government. In addition to that, you would have to admit, you would have to admit that the safety and security and the concern that electors have for their safety and security has increased over the last two and a half years. The rise of antisemitism is an example of that. So I think, I believe that Australians, and particularly West Australians, will be thinking carefully about their choice. Let me just add this point that the comments that Peter Dutton has made on a whole variety of issues stems from his experience as a political leader. And as controversial as those issues might have sounded when he first made them, the issues that you identified, the reality is that they have enjoyed strong and popular support. There will be different views on these issues, there's no doubt about that. But at a time when the country needs greater clarity in terms of the economic leadership and greater moral clarity in terms of our national leadership. I think it's Peter Dutton’s experience that Australian voters will look for.
ADSHEAD: All right. I mean, Patrick Gorman, you might want to way in here. But I mean just out of the blue, as he did on Sky, say 'well, I don't think it's right that the Prime Minister should stand before any other flag than the Australian flag.' I mean, it does seem to be playing to a base of people. Really. It's not, it's not a huge issue, is it. It's not a massive issue that that's what happens. But he seems to be playing to that base. What did you make of that one, Patrick?
GORMAN: I didn't understand what he was really getting at there. We have the Australian flag, our national flag, we have the Aboriginal flag, the Torres Strait Islander flag. They are in Parliament. They sit on the floor of Parliament. We get on with doing our work. I don't know why this is the big thing that he wants to say. He doesn't want to stand in front of a flag. Let's be honest, Gary, we're politicians. We will stand in front of anything where we can get a photo right like we'll stand in front of -
SMITH: [Laughter]
ADSHEAD: You agree on that one, do you?
GORMAN: We will stand in front of a big printed banner that says our name in massive letters. What is wrong with standing in front of a flag?
SMITH: To show you how good natured I am, Patrick and I'll ask you the question. In my electorate office, I'm pleased to have two national flags and two state flags. And given the opportunity, I stand in front of the national flag, and as a proud West Australian Liberal Senator, I also stand in front of the West Australian flag. I'm happy to share one with you, Patrick, if you don't have a state flag in your office.
ADSHEAD: I'm sure he does.
GORMAN: Well, I'm very lucky. I could just go across the road to Lisa Baker anytime I need a state flag. I have an Australian flag, an Aboriginal flag, a Torres Strait Islander flag. They sit proudly in my reception. And I always love the opportunity to give flags to people. One of the things that Dean would know, because he is a Parliamentary procedure nerd a bit like myself, is that I'm actually the Minister responsible for the Flags Act of 1953. I had an opportunity to present -
ADSHEAD: I could test how well you know that Act? Oh no, no, no, no, please. No, no. It's gonna be like sort of nerd fest.
GORMAN: I get a few interesting letters from people from time to time with slightly radical proposals to do things to the flag. But I always write back politely that we will not be proceeding down that path. But I always -
ADSHEAD: Patrick, I want to have a bit of fun with you here, because, and bring it back to to something that I reckon you both got in common in terms of where Parliament might look, what it might feel like, come the next federal election. And that's whether or not the Greens wouldn't win enough seats in terms of this balance of power issue that people keep talking about. So I will just play to you, once I can find it, because I'm sort of still learning the ropes here. I'm a little bit rusty, but Adam Bandt. Every time he comes to Perth, he's got a similar sort of message for you, I think, in a sort of a mysterious way. But he seems to be lining you up. Have a listen.
CLIP OF ADAM BANDT, LEADER OF THE GREENS: We will keep Peter Dutton out, and we'll get Labor to act on things like the rising costs of public schools. And in Perth, the seat of Perth, where Sophie Greer is running, is going to be one of the closest in the country.
ADSHEAD: Is it?
GORMAN: Well, Adam's not always right about everything. He was wrong about his position on housing last year. He has been wrong on a few things, from time to time. He's had a few interesting press conferences at the end of last year in Western Australia as well, where he had to sort of shut things down and run away when he didn't like the questions. Every time I've stood, the Greens have said that they're going to knock me off. They have taken their voters and others for granted. And then come election day, they go, oh no, we didn't really think we were going to win. Of course, I welcome the contest. I think Dean might have a big role to play in the Liberal campaign in Perth as well.
ADSHEAD: Is it winnable? Dean go on, be honest.
SMITH: Patrick, I've got a bigger role. I've got a bigger role. I'm a voter in Perth as you know. So I, you know, the destiny of yourself and the Greens candidate is in my hands. So, but I, you're right, you're almost right. I'm barracking for Susanna Panaia, right? She is our Liberal candidate in Perth. Absolutely. So my vote's not up for grabs.
GORMAN: I will say this Gary, which is just a reminder that everyone can have their different views. Dean didn't vote for me. I didn't vote for Dean. We both ended up in Parliament.
ADSHEAD: Alright, there you go. Brilliant. Now, just on the Greens though, that policy that they came out with today, I think, sort of costed at around ten billion dollars. We have conversations about free public education, but come the beginning of the year, parents know that, you know, they've sort of look at these voluntary contributions that might well be sort of $1,300 or whatever they can afford, in terms of books and so on that the kids need, and calculators that the kids might need. Okay, that's it. The Greens say free education should be a free education. On top of that, they want to pay $800 to every family per student to prepare them for the school year. First of all, Dean, what do you make of that?
SMITH: Well, in a cost of living crisis, nothing is free. Nothing is free. And we on the Liberal side, would argue that the primary challenge with everything we are doing is to bring inflation down. Inflation hurts parents that are preparing their children for school. Inflation hurts pensioners who are on a fixed income. Inflation impacts the cost of doing business for small businesses. So the great economic challenge at the moment is inflation. That fact seems to have been ignored by Adam Bandt. Now the cost of living pressures for parents preparing themselves for school are real, and of course, comes hot on the track, hot on the track of them having just had Christmas and summer holidays with children. So we don't in any way want to discount the very, very real pains that parents and families will be experiencing as they send their kids back to school. But I'd make this observation, that there are many schools, low fee paying schools, and I attend a lot of them across Perth's northern suburbs, where families of very, very modest means are attending, technically, private schools. But these are not wealthy schools, and that's a serious admission, I would argue, from Adam Bandt's election policies. One of the reassuring things is that I hope, and I hope that Patrick would be on a unity ticket with me on this, that we hope that many of the Greens' big spending ideas don't get legislated.
ADSHEAD: Yeah, okay. And obviously that depends Patrick, on whether or not there is a a balance share in the the next parliament. Would you support an idea like that?
GORMAN: Well, firstly, if you want to go to practical things to help families, I'd point, the Greens and all of your listeners as well, to the fact that the tax cuts that we put in the middle of last year give people on $80,000 a tax cut of $1,679. That is twice what Adam Bandt is promising in his latest policy, his uncosted policy. But no surprises there, of course. I think, let's be honest though, it's the start of the year, the reason Adam Bandt has come out with this policy is because he had an absolute shocker in 2024. He had his senior members standing with the discredited CFMEU at those wild rallies, he was blocking sensible housing policy that they eventually folded on. They had a bunch of internal fighting. The reason that Adam Bandt is doing, and of course, he had the inability to bring in some of his members who are supporting some really inappropriate protests out the front of members of Parliament's offices. So Adam Bandt is trying to run away from his shocker of 2024 and move on to other issues. But I think people realise that actually, when it comes to funding schools, people want to see things that are practical. I stood with the Prime Minister and the Premier last year at Mount Lawley High School in my electorate, signing the deal to get more money, an extra $800 million into the WA public education system. That's good for students, it's good for families, it's good for teachers. That's good for the future of our economy.
ADSHEAD: Alright, Matt's on the line. He's got a question. Hello, Matt.
CALLER: G'day, how are you going?
ADSHEAD: Good. Thanks for being patient.
CALLER: That is good. No, that's alright. That is alright. Look, I'd just like to know from both sides, really, how they're going to protect our democracy. Because, like I said, I've always been a dyed in the wool Labor voter and trade unionist. Make no apologies for that. But I'll tell you what I'd be happy to see 20 years of Liberal or Labor in power as long as traditional conservatives are running the Liberal Party. What's going on is just shocking throughout the entire world, and we've seen the Liberals come out and sort of undermine the CSIRO, in a sense, on the nuclear issue. And that's just how things start. They start undermining of the pillars of our society. I'm just -
ADSHEAD: I'm going to, I mean, it's a big question, how do you defend democracy? But, I mean, which particular area is bothering you?
CALLER: So what I'm seeing is, I've got mates that I go to the May Day Rally with every year, right? I try to go to the May Day Rally every year. They used to vote Labor. Now three quarters of them, are far right.
ADSHEAD: I see.
CALLER: Because I mean progressive politics is great, but we've progressed a lot, and we need to put a cork in the progressiveness, otherwise we're going to go backwards. And the world might not be ready for how progressive we're becoming. So as far as Labor is concerned, I want to see what they're going to do, as far as shaking the woke label, and as far as the Liberals are concerned, I want to know if there's good, traditional conservatives out there who are prepared to fight and push back against this far right.
ADSHEAD: Push back against it. Okay? Because, I mean, we've seen the advent and we were going to get to Donald Trump. We might not have time today, believe it or not. What do you say to that? I mean, do you get a sense either of you that we are as a nation heading down that sort of, you know, more extreme right wing flavour?
SMITH: Well, Gary as someone who describes themselves as a traditional conservative. I define those traditional conservative values as one, as being sort of fiscally conservative, so ensuring that for every taxpayer dollar that is raised, it is spent wisely, and some of it is safe for future prosperity. Secondly, as a traditional conservative, I believe in the values of institutions. Institutions don't stand still in time, though they do evolve, and this is where I think having strong faith in our parliamentary democracy is so critically important, because that allows institutions to evolve, to stay fit for purpose as community attitudes change. We, I think, in Australia, are very, very lucky, and that is that our compulsory voting system and our full preferential voting system ensures that the politics, like at the state and federal election, gets contested from the centre. It doesn't get contested at the extremities. And that's a really important explanation for why, when we watch American politics or when we watch British politics, it is very, very different from our own experience. So there are some structural features in our democratic practice that deserve to be protected, that deserve to be regularly defended. I as someone who's been around politics for a long time, I do also see the ebb and flow. I'd argue that in May 2022, there was a shift to the left in our country. There's no doubt about that. But in just two and a half years, and what I hear from Matt, in terms of the dissatisfaction of Labor voters, I hear very regularly across Western Australia. What we are seeing now, I believe, is a correction to that over step, or that sort of shift to the left that I think Australians are now rejecting it doesn't mean we're moving to the extreme right, not at all, but I think we are moving back to the centre right.
ADSHEAD: And Patrick, obviously, you would have watched the inauguration and some of the comments Donald Trump made following that. I mean, he's in an extraordinary position of strength given the election victory that he had. Are you comfortable with the Trump presidency?
GORMAN: Well, of course, like all of my colleagues, I congratulate President Trump on his inauguration. What has been very clear is that President Trump has said he's going to do things differently. He is the elected President of the United States, and he should do that. I respect the role that the United States has played in being a voice for democracy around the world. I actually went, funded by the US Aid Department, on a mission to Afghanistan in 2014, to be an independent election observer, helping them grow their democracy. And what we know since then is that unfortunately, Afghanistan is no longer a democracy. And for me, I take that as a really personal reminder that democracy is fragile, and because of that, we all have a role as leaders in our communities to stand up for democracy. Gary, you're an important part of that too. The media is an essential part of our democracy, and for that reason, I also want to share some of the sentiments that Dean's just outlined, which is that having compulsory voting, involving everyone in our national decisions makes such a difference. And the thing that I take in my work that I do as the member for Perth and the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister every day, is to make sure that I show people that democracy works for them, that when they vote for fee free TAFE, we deliver fee free TAFE. And when we make difficult decisions, like the decision we made a year ago to change the tax cuts, to give more of a tax cut to low and middle income Australians, opposed by the Coalition, they want to go to an election on it, but when we make those difficult decisions, we explain them, and we're accountable to them.
ADSHEAD: Alright. Well, look, it's wonderful to have both of you part of our democracy here at the ABC 720 where you can put your views, get your opinions out there, and, of course, take calls from our listeners. I really appreciate you coming in today, Dean.
SMITH: Thank you.
ADSHEAD: Good on you.
SMITH: And I enjoyed your music choice as well.
ADSHEAD: Oh, gee, that's it. That makes a change. And Patrick Gorman, thanks very much for being there.
GORMAN: Thanks Gary.
ADSHEAD: Good on you, Patrick and Dean Smith, there.